00:26:50 · Matteo Danieli, S6
[00:26:50] S4: Thank you. Thank you, Molly. [00:26:52] S6: This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on, and I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing, and manual closes. The companies building what's next from Vercel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Grindr, and Deepgram all made the same call. They all run on Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards, expenses, and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in. AI agents that handle expenses automatically, enforce policy before spend happens, and close your books in minutes. That's why Sourcery runs on Brex, I can spend time on building and not busywork. It's time to get Brex AF. Learn more at brex.com/sorcery. That's brex.com/sourcery. Bye. Turing is training the next generation of AI with tasks that require real expertise and real world judgment. That's why companies like Nvidia, Anthropic, Salesforce and Gemini partner with Turing. Turing builds realistic reinforcement learning environments and data systems based on real operational traces, the kind of infrastructure Frontier Labs need to train superintelligence. Visit turing.com/sourcery. AI needs more than chips. It needs power, land, and infrastructure. Zone develops next generation data center campuses, partnering with AI companies, site developers, and technology leaders to bring compute online faster and at scale. Zone is building the foundation of the AI frontier. Visit zonefrontier.com to learn more. That's zonefrontier.com to learn more.
00:28:44 · Molly O'Shea, Matteo Danieli
[00:28:44] S5: Matt, thank you for joining us. We are on a wild tour of Bending Spoons, and now we're with you, your VP of Product, your co founder. You've been with the company since the very beginning, thirteen years. Thank you for joining us. [00:28:58] S4: Thank you for being here. [00:28:59] S5: One very particularly interesting part of your story, what we were talking before the cameras started rolling, was how much the culture thrives on meritocracy. One of the best examples, I think, is you know, your story of stepping down as CPO so someone else could take.
00:29:18 · Matteo Danieli
[00:29:18] S4: So what happened is that some months ago, I was Chief Product Officer at Bending Spoons at that time. And it became evident that one of our product managers who had an incredible career and joined some years later, some years before, had matured into a professional that was definitely able to create more value in the position I was in than I was. And when I had that realization, I decided to go through the, painful step, of stepping down so that he could fill fill that role. And I'm actually proud, of what he's doing, in that role. I think it was a very good decision. But, you know, beside the personal experience, I think that this example ties to, as you as you were saying, the concept of meritocracy and how much we care about meritocracy here. We we try to operate when possible by first principles. And, you know, I think that I'm not gonna say anything controversial if I say that if you look at our organization and you hope to achieve the highest possible level of effectiveness of that organization given a certain set of people that are part of it, you need to make sure that every position will be filled by the person that's the best fit in that position. Everybody will agree with me when it comes to this statement. But then you need to take the principle and derive what it implies. And, what it implies is that especially at a company like ours, where we are constantly raising, the bar of the quality and the talent of the people that attract and we hire. You know, we become, a better known company, we acquire better known products. So, our employer brand grows, so we attract better people and at the same time, you know, we care a lot about the, selection process and making sure that we feed whatever signal from the success that people are having in the company back into the way we test people. So the natural consequence of that is that through time, you'll have better and better hires, and it's gonna be more and more likely that people will grow in the organization to the point that they're actually more capable than their leads. And at that point, you'll get into the situations where it becomes apparent that a lead will be better stepping down so that somebody else who would be better in that role could could take on that role.
00:32:13 · Matteo Danieli
Now, sounds linear, sounds rational, but if you wanna make that happen, as a manager, you need to have some of the toughest professional conversations that you'll ever be exposed to. Because going to a lead, to a professional, and telling them, look, some of the people in the organization grew so much and showed such an impressive trajectory that we believe that is best for you to step down. That's one of the toughest things you can you can tell someone. But, again, it's a it's a necessary ingredient of of this idea of meritocracy if you wanna take it to the extreme consequences and live by it. Right? In my role previously, it happened a few times that I had to deal with this type of situations. It's always been extremely tough. But what they have in common is that I was always very proud and sure that that was absolutely the best thing to do. I believe that it's one of the highest ROI things that you could do in terms of optimizing an organization. So one of the toughest, but was also one of the highest ROI. And that's both because you get someone filling, a high leverage role that's more effective in that role, but it's not just the immediate result. It's also the, positive externalities. You're basically communicating to everyone in the company that every position is up for grabs, that there's no position that if they work hard enough and if they're talented enough, they won't be able to, to fill. And this is a very powerful message. You know, one one quick off topic is that, something I'm very proud of is that if you take a look at some of our business units, some of our products, some of our functions, you'll find that some of the people filling those very high leverage positions are not even 30, or maybe they've just turned thirties. So especially in Italy where you have a culture whereby, people that have been in a job for a long time, they will be entrenched, in those positions. But I would say even just worldwide, knowing that, you know, a person who is in their early thirties are managing companies and products worth billions of dollars. That's really insane. And again, that's made possible by the openness of giving everyone a chance. And so this is something that happened before with other leads that I personally asked to step down. And at some point, it happened with me as well.
00:35:13 · Matteo Danieli, Molly O'Shea
I realized that Lorenzo, this guy that we promoted, had what it took. And I'm proud of, you know, walking the talk. And I'm even more proud because even though we made it a point since the very early days never to look at the founder figure as something different from anybody else, we don't want to idolize it in any possible way. There might be anyway an expectation that no matter how meritocratic you are, there might be limits to that meritocracy. For example, if that meritocracy conflicts with a founder, you'll stop applying it. And I think that one of the reasons why I'm proud of what I did was because since I'm a founder, that signal, that positive externality is even more powerful. Again, it's an even stronger message for everyone that any job is up for grabs, even the CEO job. [00:36:14] S5: Luca also likes to live by this quite well, and every December he puts out a Google Form?
00:36:14 · Molly O'Shea, Matteo Danieli
[00:36:14] S5: Luca also likes to live by this quite well, and every December he puts out a Google Form? [00:36:21] S4: Yeah. Yeah. He puts out a a form where he asks people he trusts whether they believe that somebody else could take his role that, you know, would be better positioned to leave the company, whether whether, you know, anyone is dissatisfied with his performance. And, you know, it it might look like some sort of a performative act from outside. Like, you know, nobody will really tell you that you're doing a poor job, but he actually means it. And I think even more, even if it didn't, even if the feedback or the signal didn't come through that Google form and that process, if he realized or if anyone realized that somebody at the company could do a better job than he could in that role, he would be the first one to say there needs to be a change here. I'm absolutely sure of it, which is why I'm saying that, again, anyone, if they work intensely enough, if they're talented enough, could aspire even to that position. [00:37:30] S5: Well, definitely believe that because when we did our long form sit down with Luca, he said a lot of the mission of the company is to become an ultimate truth seeker. And so, I could definitely see him wanting all those data points around his performance and execution, and how to make the organization better. [00:37:49] S4: Yeah, the ultimate act of truth seeking,