Y Combinator Startup Podcast
00:04:14 · Vivian Shen, Paul Graham
[00:04:14] S0: Like which ones? [00:04:15] S1: Well, a new Google. That was one of them, right? And it turns out, look, I sort of predicted this, right? That the way you make a new Google is not by attacking them head on. You have to wait for things to change so much that their model is obsolete and that's when you can do it. That's what OpenAI is. [00:04:36] S0: Right. [00:04:37] S1: Right? Like I realized very early on, like after using OpenAI, like, woah, I don't use Google anymore. I don't use searches. That what I really wanted from searches was not web pages. I wanted information. Why not just ask the AI for the information? Right? And I'm sure everyone's now had this experience. [00:04:52] S0: And it was incubated at YC. [00:04:54] S1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of Sam's many side projects. [00:04:58] S0: Yes. And so along the same veins of around ambitious as a term, I am curious when you figured out why a founder needs to be not just unusually talented in technical ability or something else, but they actually have to be really ambitious as well. [00:05:13] S1: When did I figure out that founders had to be really ambitious? I think I already knew that before we started YC because when we started YC, we already had all this experience of doing a startup ourselves. And so we knew that it was grueling. And you need something to drive you through all those obstacles. And honestly, being dutiful is not enough. The obstacles are too fearsome for a mere dutifulness to do it. So there's gotta be something driving you, and you you call it ambition.
00:05:13 · Paul Graham, Vivian Shen
[00:05:13] S1: When did I figure out that founders had to be really ambitious? I think I already knew that before we started YC because when we started YC, we already had all this experience of doing a startup ourselves. And so we knew that it was grueling. And you need something to drive you through all those obstacles. And honestly, being dutiful is not enough. The obstacles are too fearsome for a mere dutifulness to do it. So there's gotta be something driving you, and you you call it ambition. [00:05:48] S0: And part of ambition, I assume, is wanting to be a billionaire someday. [00:05:51] S1: You'd be surprised, actually. [00:05:53] S0: Tell me more.
00:05:53 · Vivian Shen, Paul Graham
[00:05:53] S0: Tell me more. [00:05:54] S1: You know what actually motivates founders day to day? The fear of failure. Even though they're doing this thing that if they succeed, they'll be super rich, that does motivate them. But the thing that motivates them at any given moment is the fear of disaster, looking like a fool, the server crashing, right? Like if you're running some online service and your server's crashing, you're not thinking, I got to deal with this because if I deal with it, I'll become a billionaire. You're thinking, oh no, the server's crashing. It will be a disaster. The engine of my model train set is falling off the edge of the table. I need to go and save it. Right? That's what you're thinking at any given time. You just don't want your model train set to break. You put your head down and work on the model train set for ten years, and then you lift your head up and like, holy shit, like if I add up the value of all my shares at the current the last round valuation, I'm a billionaire. But it takes people by surprise when it happens. [00:06:54] S0: Yeah, that's great. [00:06:55] S1: Sometimes I'm the first to tell them. Like, I do the math. I'm like, wait, according to your last round, you're at a billionaire. Like, oh, yeah, I am. [00:07:02] S0: That's the way we want it. And I'm curious, can you tell me a story about a founder where when they started YC, they were maybe not ambitious enough, and then they became very ambitious during the batch?
00:07:02 · Vivian Shen, Paul Graham
[00:07:02] S0: That's the way we want it. And I'm curious, can you tell me a story about a founder where when they started YC, they were maybe not ambitious enough, and then they became very ambitious during the batch? [00:07:12] S1: Those stories are rare because most of this quality is inborn. And so like Sam Altman famously was extremely formidable the first time I met him before we even accepted him. And that's more the rule than the exception. So the one case where you see founders it's not that they lack ambition, it's more like they've been trained not to show it. Because when you're young, you're often in situations where you're supposed to be obedient. You're not supposed to like go off and do what you want. You're supposed to do what people tell you. Maybe you have pushy parents who tell you to do what they want, right? And so you've never let yourself go. That's the one case. But even then, would argue that the person was ambitious. They'd just been trained not to show it. [00:08:01] S0: Yeah. Actually, that's a good point because I think nowadays a lot of people think about startups like another badge that they should collect along
00:08:01 · Vivian Shen, Paul Graham
[00:08:01] S0: Yeah. Actually, that's a good point because I think nowadays a lot of people think about startups like another badge that they should collect along [00:08:08] S1: Only the if it fails. If it works, it's like your life's work. You don't have any more badges, right? And so what kind of badge is a failed startup? Not much of a badge. I think if people think that they're not thinking it through, right? Like honestly, we would get it was quite early on in YC's history when people started applying to YC for the prestige. Right? Like they would apply to Harvard hoping they would get in. But the thing is, if you apply to Harvard and get in, you should do it because no matter how stupid you are, there's easy majors you can choose and sort of slide through. You'll get a Harvard degree and everybody will be impressed with you. With startups, there's no easy major. So Right? It's like applying to Harvard and being forced to study theoretical physics. It's really rough if you're not very hardworking and clever and determined. And so these people trying to do YC as a credential, they had no idea what they were asking for. Didn't realize, like, this is not this is a really, really unsuitable credential. [00:09:13] S0: There are many easier ways to get credentials. [00:09:15] S1: Yeah. To do that. Yeah. If you want to seem cool, like starting a startup is just about the least efficient way to do it. Yeah. It's brutally hard. [00:09:23] S0: Yep. [00:09:24] S1: And you won't seem cool for years of years of brutal hardness before anyone will think you're cool.
00:09:24 · Paul Graham, Vivian Shen
[00:09:24] S1: And you won't seem cool for years of years of brutal hardness before anyone will think you're cool. [00:09:29] S0: 100%. When you were describing some of the founders before you used the word formidable, can you tell us a little bit more about how that word came to be, what it means to you as well? [00:09:38] S1: Well, a lot of the language of Y Combinator is Maya and Jessica's private language, right? And so we already had this word before we started Y C, like for a certain kind of person. And I described it in an essay. I said I think that it's someone who gets what they want. That's the test. Do you get what you want? Because how formidable are you if you don't get what you want? So it's someone who gets what they want in any situation. And so if you invest in them and you have stock in their company and they have stock in this company, your interests are aligned. If they get what they want, you get what you want. So that's why investors want people who are formidable. Pretty good. Yeah, because they get a part of what the founder gets. [00:10:23] S0: So changing tracks a little bit. At startup school, Patrick Collison recently said that lean startups may be dead. [00:10:30] S1: Did he? [00:10:31] S0: And part of that is because he says, you know, it's really easy to raise money these days. AI lets you work on many things in parallel. You could spin out a bunch of agents and work on a bunch of things. Do you agree with him, or would you have a rebuttal?