Planet Money
00:26:53 · Amanda Aronczyk, Scott Stringer
[00:26:53] S2: But Scott Stringer was like, is this okay? Normally, when a city agency wants to make some big purchase, even a new set of history books for sixth graders, there's a whole process for it, and it's designed to ensure public accountability. They take requests for bids, select a vendor, submit that vendor to be vetted. And within that process, there might be a big public debate about it. [00:27:16] S9: It's a check, and we are a city of checks and balances. That's why we have a city council. That's why you have a controller. That's That's why you have an independent budget office. You know, all of this is to check a very powerful police department and a powerful mayor no matter who the mayor is. [00:27:30] S2: So a few years into the wink wink nod nod agreement with the NYPD, Scott Stringer was like, maybe skipping public debate about all of this new tech that the NYPD is buying is a mistake. [00:27:42] S9: When you're going to look at a technology, well, it it can't be, you know, five guys in a room. It has to be, will this pass the smell test? Are are we dealing with good actors? Are the contractors honest? Is their pay to play? A tool is important if it's effective. But how do we measure if it's effective if there's no oversight?
00:27:42 · Scott Stringer, Amanda Aronczyk
[00:27:42] S9: When you're going to look at a technology, well, it it can't be, you know, five guys in a room. It has to be, will this pass the smell test? Are are we dealing with good actors? Are the contractors honest? Is their pay to play? A tool is important if it's effective. But how do we measure if it's effective if there's no oversight? [00:28:06] S2: Now it wasn't just the comptroller who was worrying about what the police department was buying or what they were up to. Civil liberties advocates were like, is this even legal? All over The United States, there are long standing rules about what information police departments can collect about people before they become suspects in a crime. So for example, police are not supposed to spy on people because of their political or religious beliefs or demand data on people just to see who was near a crime scene or search someone's home without a warrant. Did any of the tools woven into the domain awareness system in those early years cross any existing lines or break any rules? At the time and without more information, it was hard to know. Over at the Legal Aid Society, a lawyer named Jerome Greco was seeing evidence of all kinds of new NYPD surveillance tools in court. At the time, he was defending clients, kinda like the people I was seeing in the videos while I was on grand jury duty. He remembers one particular case from 2016.
00:28:06 · Amanda Aronczyk, Jerome Greco
[00:28:06] S2: Now it wasn't just the comptroller who was worrying about what the police department was buying or what they were up to. Civil liberties advocates were like, is this even legal? All over The United States, there are long standing rules about what information police departments can collect about people before they become suspects in a crime. So for example, police are not supposed to spy on people because of their political or religious beliefs or demand data on people just to see who was near a crime scene or search someone's home without a warrant. Did any of the tools woven into the domain awareness system in those early years cross any existing lines or break any rules? At the time and without more information, it was hard to know. Over at the Legal Aid Society, a lawyer named Jerome Greco was seeing evidence of all kinds of new NYPD surveillance tools in court. At the time, he was defending clients, kinda like the people I was seeing in the videos while I was on grand jury duty. He remembers one particular case from 2016. [00:29:12] S10: We had a client who had a one night stand, and the MIP was looking for him and found him at, that woman's apartment. And we're like, has no connection to this woman before this night. Tell us how you found him. And, you know, crickets.
00:29:12 · Jerome Greco, Amanda Aronczyk, Scott Stringer
[00:29:12] S10: We had a client who had a one night stand, and the MIP was looking for him and found him at, that woman's apartment. And we're like, has no connection to this woman before this night. Tell us how you found him. And, you know, crickets. [00:29:27] S2: Had they tracked his cell phone? If so, how? Jerome wanted to know were these tools legal and effective, but he also wanted to know could he buy his own? Not for, like, eavesdropping or wiretapping, but tools to extract data from cell phones or laptops or enhance video. You guys have bought these things for yourself? [00:29:49] S10: Yes. Well, I wouldn't say for ourselves, for for our clients. [00:29:52] S2: I see. Like, if the NYPD has data from a cell phone, Jerome can also check the data for himself, make sure the evidence is accurate. He even goes to some of the same conferences that police go to to do some shopping. [00:30:06] S10: We go to see the vendors, and they're talking about... And this will help you catch the bad guy. And then they'll give us [00:30:11] S9: a whole little spiel, and [00:30:12] S10: then they'll say, where are you guys from? And, like, legal aid side, republic defenders, and just watching their face, like, drop the... Like, oh [00:30:18] S2: A lot of the reps from the tech companies are also former police officers themselves, which Jerome worries gives the products a kind of stamp of approval without due diligence.
00:30:18 · Amanda Aronczyk, Jerome Greco
[00:30:18] S2: A lot of the reps from the tech companies are also former police officers themselves, which Jerome worries gives the products a kind of stamp of approval without due diligence. [00:30:29] S10: How much are we evaluating what they're saying? Right? They say, oh, this worked this way, and it'll capture this. It's like, well, did did you evaluate that at all before you before you decided to sign on the dotted line? [00:30:41] S2: And before spending what is usually taxpayer money. Now today, the NYPD says they have a strict procurement and vendor review process. But back then, the main reason Jerome knew that the NYPD was buying all of this tech was because of what he was seeing in courtrooms. But the contracts themselves with the names of the companies, the cost of the products, and those signatures on the dotted lines, those were mostly hidden from the public. And these kinds of surveillance tech contracts have also been kept quiet in police departments around the country through nondisclosure agreements or off the books funding, funding like from those police foundations that raised a bunch of money after nine eleven, or sometimes through federal grants. Police have more latitude to spend that kind of outside money without public oversight. For years, civil liberties groups had been pushing for more concrete information. In New York, Jerome says that they tried but could not get answers. [00:31:43] S10: The NYPD had been stonewalling everybody then either got very limited or none.
00:31:43 · Jerome Greco, Amanda Aronczyk, S11, Scott Stringer
[00:31:43] S10: The NYPD had been stonewalling everybody then either got very limited or none. [00:31:48] S2: It wasn't until 2020 with the wave of protests following the murder of George Floyd by police that something kind of shook loose. The protesters were being videotaped, and there was lots of debate about them ending up in police databases. A wave of cities passed laws that forced police to be more transparent about the tech they were using. In New York, former city council member Vanessa Gibson had already introduced the POST Act, the Public Oversight of Surveillance Technology Act. Now because of the protests, it passed. [00:32:21] S11: Today, today is a very important day in our city where the New York City Council will take a very bold step forward in recognizing that a sleeping nation has finally woke up following the horrific murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis. [00:32:36] S2: A couple of weeks after the post act passes, former comptroller Scott Stringer also decides to end that wink wink nod nod agreement with the police, officially withdraws from it. [00:32:45] S9: I decided at that point, we need to disclose all of this.