· David Senra, Jeremy Stern
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· David Senra
[00:00:00] S0: One of my favorite quotes in the piece is there was a former AI researcher that used to work for Zuck and now is at a competing lab, and he goes unnamed in the piece, but he said exactly that. He said, "Mark is the fucking terminator. He just doesn't stop." One of his advantages is that he's always discontent, he's always unhappy, but I think he says he's not an asshole. He just keeps moving forward. And then there's another thing that Mark, I thought was interesting. It was a direct quote from Mark, if I remember correctly, and he was talking about his advantage relative to like Sam Altman and Elon, where he's just like, "The things I do are kind of unsexy. I'm just very good at getting a team and taking something and improving it a lot over a long period of time. And then because of the structure and the business that I have, I don't have to essentially keep raising more money, and I don't really have to ask other people's permission to do what I'm doing."
· Jeremy Stern
[00:00:00] S1: Yeah, that was something that I found very interesting about him and that I think I came to appreciate about him in the course of reporting the piece. I think I began it with skepticism about a lot of the products that Meta's built and feeling pretty ambivalent about the impact on society that social media's had, lots of things like that. One of the things I did come to appreciate about him is that I do kind of see him in the mold as like a classical American business mogul, as distinct from the more recent generation of AI founders. In that quote, I think he says something to the effect of, "My edge in the world is sitting down with a team and methodically improving a single product over the course of decades and building more and more value into it." And he doesn't go out and do all these big splashy things. I think one of the things I appreciated about that was regardless of what you think about Meta and the products it makes and offers, Zuckerberg as a figure, I think, is ideologically coherent and unconfused in a way that a lot of the major AI figures are not. He sees Meta as kind of a business, first and foremost. And I know it's like a full-stack deep technology company and all these other things, but I don't think he overestimates the impact that the business has on history. Whereas if you talk to a lot of the major AI figures, it's really hard to talk them off this cliff of thinking that their company is the last thing that will ever be built in human history. And I appreciate about Zuckerberg that he doesn't go there.
· David Senra
[00:00:00] S0: Yeah, you did a great job of like, okay, because I've heard the same thing. It's like, oh, you're so far behind in AI, it'll never catch up. He can't buy it. He doesn't get it. And then, okay, well, let's just like steel man the other side where for decades everybody says, "This guy's dead. He's going to fail." And he just keeps rising, keeps walking forward, and you cannot kill him. So, what is the AI equivalent of that? And I think in one part of the piece, would you want to bet against him not figuring this out? And they're like, "No, no, no." Suddenly, their confidence, like, "No, I'm not betting against him."
· Jeremy Stern
[00:00:00] S1: Yeah, and I think that's probably reflected to some extent in the markets. But yeah, I think he never said this explicitly, but I think a big part of the bull case for Meta in AI would basically be that their potential install base for whatever model they have, regardless of how good it is, is approximately half of all human beings that live on planet Earth at any given time. That's how many people use WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, Messenger, Meta AI. So they have the distribution. He spent 20 years doing all of these really boring- You know, mind-numbing things like negotiating contracts for infrastructure projects with municipal and state governments and figuring out the tax incentives and how much of the revenue that the data center generates is going to be used to pay for other public works in that community, blah, blah, blah. All this really unsexy stuff that, again, like he and a fairly small team of people have spent the last quarter century negotiating. I think it's all resulted in they basically have the distribution, the infrastructure, and then of course, the attention that they dominate through the apps. They just have a lot of the things where probably a lot of the value that AI generates, it's going to accrue at the complements that Meta already dominates. When I spoke to those people and they said they would not be willing to bet that Zuckerberg or Meta loses the AI race, I think it's based on the fact that he's just built this business that's kind of possibly perfectly positioned to win the race in an important way, whereas the pure AI labs don't have anything like this and still have to pay to rent a lot of the infrastructure and the compute and all the stuff that he owns.
· David Senra
[00:00:00] S0: So in the piece, there's several times where he says, like, "I'm addicted to building. I just like building things. I didn't even think I was starting a company. This is like a natural evolution of just the fact that I build. I'll never stop. I won't quit." Those are my favorite kind of founders. You and I have talked about this privately over and over again. I'm just super interested in the people that cannot be bought, that are just doing it for other reasons. They're not looking to be acquired. They're just like, "This is how I want to spend the short amount of time that I have on this planet, and there's nothing else. Like, you're not going to get me off the path that I'm on." Based on the time you spent with him and talking to all the people around him, including his family, what would it take for him to say, "Hey, I'm just going to step back from Meta"?