00:41:23 · Elad Gil, Aditya Agarwal
[00:41:23] S0: Was Steve Jobs building? Was Jeff Bezos building? Did they have access to Claude Code? I don't know. Who knows, maybe? That's why Amazon is so successful. I [00:41:36] S1: mean, I think Jeff Bezos is back to building now. [00:41:38] S0: Right here. Oh, how do you define building? Yeah. Right? He wasn't technical at all, and so he hired some guy to build stuff. If you look at Uber, right, Travis has talked about this publicly. Travis and Garrett set it up as a side project. They found the CEO Ryan on Twitter. They literally tweeted, hey. We have this side project. He wants to run it. And somebody put up their hand on Twitter. That was Ryan Graves. Right? And then they... I think they initially outsourced the app to third party developers and then brought it in house. Right? That was early Twitter. I mean, early on.. [00:42:08] S1: Right. Excuse me. We're CEO. [00:42:09] S0: Yeah. And he... They find him on Twitter. Right? And so were they building? [00:42:16] S1: Yeah. Good point. But Garrett always sees he be the first worker. Maybe he did. Maybe he did. But I... You're quite a builder. Don't know. [00:42:23] S0: Quite is that. Again, I I wasn't in the middle of it. I'm just saying, like, it's interesting to look at historical precedents, and I think we have all these myths. Yeah. And it may be 90% true.
00:42:23 · Elad Gil, Aditya Agarwal
[00:42:23] S0: Quite is that. Again, I I wasn't in the middle of it. I'm just saying, like, it's interesting to look at historical precedents, and I think we have all these myths. Yeah. And it may be 90% true. [00:42:33] S1: I was just actually walking by the Cove office, which was 148 Townsend the other day, and I remember because it was impossible to get a fucking cab in San Francisco. So my first ever Uber was, like, a Uber blackened from 148 Townsend to our house in Noe Valley. And it was amazing because I'm, like, don't find a cab in San Francisco. So I was just thinking about that. [00:42:54] S0: One aside, by the way, as I'm afraid, do think builder CEOs tend to do better Yes. On average. So I'm not at all in the game, Matt, and just saying there's there's counterexamples. And it's because they're in the weeds on the product or detailing to... That they're doing stuff. They don't need another person to enable them so they can't kinda shit things and do they... No. So there's all sorts of reasons why it's a huge pothead. So not at all... I think in general, I tend to work with technical founders. I'm just saying it... It's... [00:43:15] S1: At least there are examples where that isn't true. Yeah. Maybe maybe the larger follow-up question is more, is a CEO need... Should they be a little bit more hands on than they were five years ago? Because the tools to... Because in five years, know, if you're essentially... You know, the bifurcation between manager mode and maker mode was pretty stark.
00:43:15 · Aditya Agarwal, Elad Gil
[00:43:15] S1: At least there are examples where that isn't true. Yeah. Maybe maybe the larger follow-up question is more, is a CEO need... Should they be a little bit more hands on than they were five years ago? Because the tools to... Because in five years, know, if you're essentially... You know, the bifurcation between manager mode and maker mode was pretty stark. [00:43:36] S0: I think people should have always been hands on, and it's back to... But I think micromanagement is underrated. [00:43:42] S1: I... No. No. I I I think b b b is. He's underrated. [00:43:45] S0: Yeah. No. I agree. I think... And I think that transition's come back. I think, basically, it went from delegate, delegate, delegate to, actually, you should delegate a ton of shit. Yeah. There's a lot of things that you should be on the weeds on, and there's a lot of things that you personally should micromanage, and those are the most successful companies. You should I think it's not balanced. It's not one or the other, and I think people have over indexed in either direction over time. [00:44:05] S1: You should actually micromanage as such. That's the highest leverage in the most important things. [00:44:09] S0: And that you're actually good at. [00:44:10] S1: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You're not so covered. [00:44:13] S0: I have a fun fun.