Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:46:08 · Lenny Rachitsky, Brian Halligan
[00:46:08] S1: Awesome. Okay, another Halliganism, I don't know if you put it this way, the way I think about it is this idea of, "There's no such thing as a silver bullet, it just takes a lot of lead bullets to get something done." I think the way you wrote about it is it's always one step forward, two steps back. Talk about your advice there. [00:46:24] S0: Yeah, I always thought, incorrectly, that we would have one hire or one investor or one event or one product release that would... I was wrong about this, but it'd be a silver bullet. And the reality inside the HubSpot machine, the way it felt to me, it looks from the outside, over a long time up into the right, and smooth, but inside it was two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. And a lot of times it was a crisis that caused that step back. So, we just didn't have that. The thing about being a founder/CEO is no one, especially when you're in your 20s, there's no one there to rescue you. Your parents aren't going to rescue you, your VC is not going to rescue you, your teacher, your thesis advisor, you're on your own and you got to figure it out. And that hits you when you hit your first crisis, it's on you. You can get some help, but it's on you. [00:47:23] S1: Sometimes they have you in their corner, if they're lucky at Sequoia. Plug, plug. [00:47:27] S0: Yep. I can't solve it oftentimes, I can be the shoulder they cry on, and I can give them advice, but it's still on them.
00:47:27 · Brian Halligan, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:47:27] S0: Yep. I can't solve it oftentimes, I can be the shoulder they cry on, and I can give them advice, but it's still on them. [00:47:33] S1: Do you feel like too many people start companies just like... When someone comes to you like, hey Brian, should I start a company? I have this idea. Do you often just like, no. You have no idea what you're getting into, this is going to be much more painful?
00:47:44 · Brian Halligan
[00:47:44] S0: Yes. Yes. I heard Jensen Huang say that. "I wouldn't have start started Nvidia if I had it to do over." If someone asked me that question, I would start HubSpot over. It was very hard, there were a lot of sacrifices, it wasn't glamorous at all. But in the end of the day, I'm incredibly proud of it. And on my deathbed, I can look back and really enjoy it. And the Dalai Lama's got a good expression like, "Live a good life so you can live it again on your deathbed." And I'm really glad I did it. But I do talk a lot of founders out of it. The obsession is real, you have to be deeply obsessed. And all these founders and CEOs I talk to, people talk about 9-9-6, it's way more than that. The founders are seven days a week, they're always on, I [inaudible 00:48:40] on Sunday nights, it's full contact. And I think what's going on there, particularly now, is people just see this massive platform change, massive opportunity, they don't want to waste the opportunity. So, I think that mindset's right. But people today are much, much more hardcore than they were in my year. I worked hard, and I was probably, I was 60 to 70 week hours a week the entire time, never really turned it off. But that's kind of how I thought about it. It's different now. People are much more focused, and I think Elon's inspired people.
00:49:09 · Lenny Rachitsky, Brian Halligan
[00:49:09] S1: I had a start back in the day, nowhere near as successful as HubSpot, but the way I thought about it is, let me just give it everything I have and see what I can do. This is the shot, this is my chance, let me just give it all. Forget balance, just go for it. Seven days a week for a while. And then you scale back. And it's just such an empowering thing to do for a while, just like, let me just try. This won't be forever. [00:49:33] S0: Yep. [00:49:35] S1: And I know you've written about this, just like balance for CEO is not, you should not have work-life balance if you want to be incredibly successful. I don't know if that's always true, but just... I don't know, how do you talk about that to founders? [00:49:48] S0: I don't know any of the founders I work with that have work-life balance. By the way, this is not something I recommend. I didn't have it, I don't think my co-founder, Dharmesh had it. The only CEO I know, and he's unusual in this way, is Kareem from Clay. He's like, "Nope, you need balance, take the weekends..." He's got a different mindset. I'm going to have him on my pod to talk about his mindset. But he's sort of the outlier, everyone else is really, really obsessed, and they really don't have much of a life. [00:50:21] S1: It did take them a long time to find product market fit [inaudible 00:50:25]- [00:50:24] S0: [inaudible 00:50:25] definitely pre-AI. It did them a long... [00:50:28] S1: I wonder if there's a correlation, but it did work out. [00:50:31] S0: Worked out great.
00:50:31 · Brian Halligan, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:50:31] S0: Worked out great. [00:50:33] S1: So, it is a good lesson. Okay, a few more here. One is, it's a math formula. "EV is greater than TV is greater than MEV." What is that?
00:50:44 · Brian Halligan
[00:50:44] S0: Okay, EV is enterprise value, TV is your team's value, MEV is your value. And as HubSpot was scaling, and we had a lot of people who were VPs in different roles, and they started to get good-sized organizations, where they would fall down was they didn't solve for MEV, but they'd solve for TV over EV. They'd solve for their own team. So, let's say they ran sales, and say, I just want bookings to be as high as possible because I get paid on bookings, and the service team can handle all the downstream problems I created. Marketing to sales... Between every department that's happened. And the kind of immature managers who didn't scale, really solved for themselves, and as they solved for themselves kind of sub-optimize for their peers. And their employees would notice it and complain about it, it would be fine in the short term, but it would show up. And the place it would show up, Lenny, was, we did, and I think a lot of companies do this now, but we did a quarterly employee net promoter. We did a quarterly customer net promoter survey and a quarterly employee one. And we would have people rate it by the department they're in. And one interesting thing about that, so it's like sales and service and engineering, all the different departments, and we had an overall net promoter score, and then each department had a net promoter score. And let's just take sales. Sales net promoter score was like, 65, 62, 68, 30. Ooh, that's a big drop. And then you read the comments and it was not good, a lot of complaints about the leader of that. And a lot of the complaints were a little bit of this TV thing. And then, we give feedback to that VP, would help them, we give them all the comments, be like, you got this. And then a quarter later from 30 to -5. And they almost never actually recovered. When you lose, your team can't... It's hard to get them back. And that's why I say hire slow, fire fast. And this doesn't show up in the first 100, 150 employees, everyone's solving for EV, but as it gets bigger, and the CEO doesn't know anyone, and there's a couple layers between you and the employees, they tend to solve for TV. So, we always put on the wall, "Solve for EV over TV over MEV," and then we added CV in front of EV, solve for the customers first, then for HubSpot, then the employee, then yourself. That was be very helpful to us.