Inspired with Alexa von Tobel
00:25:04 · Mikey Shulman
[00:25:04] S0: Yeah. Look, I'll preface with music was invented to be social and be between people. And unfortunately, to some extent, for many people, it has largely become a non social activity. It's like, I put it on in my ears, I put my phone back in my pocket, and I don't even know who I'm listening to, and it kind of removes the human connection from it. We see a lot of different social dynamics. So they're like, I make a song just for you. Maybe it's actually a really touching song, and you and I will both listen to it, you know, hundreds of times. But maybe it's actually kind of a a song with some amount of levity meant to just brighten your day, you're going to listen to it once, and then never listen to it again. The same way there's probably pictures in your phone that you've looked that you've looked at once and haven't looked at again until Apple reminds you to go look at them. There's lots of group dynamics of songs for particular groups, whether that is I'm going to a wedding and everybody in the wedding is going to know the song, but it could be like a group of old friends and somebody, you know, takes one of the Apple photo reels and and puts a song to it and makes it more touching. But then I think the crazy thing is there's a really robust remix ecosystem on our platform. And, like, a quarter of the songs made on platform are actually remixes of other songs on platform. And this is what kind of what music was invented for. It's like it's like we're going to adapt. We're going to take a piece of music, and we're going to change it in some way and evolve it, and not have it be static. And you see platforms like SoundCloud got really, really big five years ago with that whole ecosystem. And when you give that power to literally everybody, and everybody has taste in music even if they don't currently have mastered, you know, production software like Ableton. Everybody has taste. And when you give everybody the ability to do that, everybody likes to do it. And so I almost see remixing as a gateway drug into making your own music. It's like, I have this thing to start with. I really like the song. I'm going to make it my own. I really like it how I've made my own. I'm gonna take the next step, and I'm gonna start to make my own music. So it's... Yeah. It's it's it's... The social dynamics are really powerful.
00:27:15 · Mikey Shulman, Alexa von Tobel
And then I think the last thing I would say there is, in life, just regardless of music, just in everything, the most valuable interactions we have are with other people. And so, again, it should not be surprising that the best types of musical interactions you have are with other people. [00:27:31] S1: That's really well said. By the way, I'm really excited to hear that the gateway drug into music creation is is is remixes. Mikey, talk a little bit about the business model of Suno. I I mean, in so many ways, there's such a clear business model. In other ways, you're literally inventing something in a totally new type of platform. This isn't just Spotify but new. You know, there really is a different dynamic that's happening here. How do you think about the business model and how it could evolve? [00:27:58] S0: I think about this a lot. I think we have no immediate plans to change our business model, which today is... There's a free tier and there's a subscription tier. [00:28:06] S1: And what are those costs, Mikey, just so that everybody knows?
00:28:06 · Alexa von Tobel, Mikey Shulman
[00:28:06] S1: And what are those costs, Mikey, just so that everybody knows? [00:28:09] S0: So the free tier is free, and the subscription tiers are either $10 a month or $30 a month. And I think that our product evolves so quickly. My my personal bias here is we should not be evolving the business model while the product evolves so quickly. But I think a lot about this with music more generally, that the business model has always been really impacted by the format of recorded music, and technology is the thing that actually most impacts the format of recorded music. And so, you know, thirty years ago, the recorded music format was like a physical good with your music on it, like a CD or a vinyl or a cassette. And you had to go and you had to buy that, and that's one business model. And today, the format is like, I feel like all of the world's music lives on my phone, and that's digital streaming. And that is a a huge unlock for consumers, but a different business model. And the format in the future will be different. It won't just be streaming lots of music, some of which was made by AI. It will be music that is more interactive. It will be music that you play with. And it is my very strong suspicion that when you have a new format, a new business model will have to pop up around it. And so I don't know what it is. I'm, like, totally dodging the question in that sense, but I do know that it won't be what it is today.
00:29:27 · Alexa von Tobel
[00:29:27] S1: That's well said. And I mean, I could imagine that you could continue to expand tiers where it's real professional creation tools. There's a lot of places this can go, and I agree with you right now. You're just honestly harnessing an unprecedented consumer growth that very few point 01% of businesses even get a chance to see. And so just following this where the world takes you, I think is the right answer. Wanted to quickly just ask, you're you're building a company at a time where the broader music industry is rethinking what creativity looks like. And in so many ways, Mikey, you're like in the perch of watching what creativity is and how we define it. And and to your point, you know, you've got... I was at Carnegie Hall last week with my son. You've got, you know, a concept of one, what music is that is old and classic and extremely high brow. And in some ways, you are reshaping the snow globe. Right? You're shaking it, and we're kind of reimagining what this looks like. How do you think Suno is currently reshaping music for the broader industry? What are you seeing there?
00:30:46 · Mikey Shulman
[00:30:46] S0: You know, it's kind of amazing to see that the same platform and tools get used by everyday people who are finding music making as enjoyable for the first time in their lives, all the way up to the top producers in the world using it in bits and pieces in their everyday workflow. And the thing that I find really inspiring there is there's there's an amount of, like, let's say, ambition and admiration and joy that I can get knowing that I'm using the same tools as a top professional. And I think that there are other brands that have this, and I think that it is a huge boost for them and also just a huge, like, incredible feeling for all of the people who use that brand. So as an example, Wilson tennis rackets. I like... I'm an amateur tennis player, and I enjoy it. And there's something that's amazing knowing that I'm using the same equipment as Roger Federer even though there are no illusions here that I'm ever going to play at that level. Or Nike running shoes that I can run-in the same shoes as who's ever gonna win the Boston Marathon this year. There are no illusions that I'm ever gonna run that fast. And I think that somehow that is missing from music that the way a professional interacts with music today is very different from how, you know, ordinary people interact with music. And actually having that happen on the same platform is amazing. And I think that, yeah, that actually probably is disruptive, but it's also probably really cool because it is a way for fans and artists to interact with one another through music. And that is something that is, like, completely absent today. Fans and artists really only get... Ever get to interact with... Through music at a concert, which is, like, kind of a rare thing. Most people will go to zero or one concerts a year. But if you could do that every day, interact with your favorite artist through music because you're both using the same platform, I think that is an incredible unlock for the entire industry.
00:32:50 · Alexa von Tobel
[00:32:50] S1: Mikey, I know there's a ton of legal dynamic that you have to manage, and you probably can't even talk about a bunch of that. But I would love just for you to share what you can on how boundaries around creation are being reshaped and maybe anything that you see.