Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:09:52 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[01:09:52] S0: Oh yeah, it is how far do you push fully, automated review? [01:09:57] S1: Yes. Actually, well, this is a fun one with the content design check. I think we're looking for across all of it, how do you actually get what good looks like? And so actually the verification is still one that I think, and that's kind of like the second and the third that I think there's a lot more opportunities there for us, but the how far to push, I think looking at where we think experts still matters and then also again, have to keep asking ourselves, okay, is there a way to leverage that expertise to also automate? I think looking across the whole end-to-end experience, making sure we're not missing, I think we come at it from an engineering standpoint, but making sure on experiences how we think about those other areas. I think there's definitely still more that we can do there. [01:10:44] S0: Basically, how do you set up a verification that the experience is what you wanted it to be? [01:10:51] S1: Exactly, and I think that one is still a hard one to crack because you kind of mentioned evaluations because some of it for sure is accuracy, but it's also that experience. So that's something that we're still kind of thinking through. [01:11:03] S0: Awesome. Is there anything else that's like, "Oh, this has changed recently. We got to figure out how to rethink the way we operate," or is this kind of the big ones?
01:11:03 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[01:11:03] S0: Awesome. Is there anything else that's like, "Oh, this has changed recently. We got to figure out how to rethink the way we operate," or is this kind of the big ones? [01:11:11] S1: I think because with routines and everything being more async, I think there is starting to be a high load on our context switching because I even remember myself, I was like oh, I kicked off, and so I think that's probably another thing we have to think about whether for team members or users, how can we actually make the experience better to reduce that load? Because I do see the context switching load increasing. [01:11:39] S0: If you have 20 agents running, there's just endless checking in and reviewing and you have to remember what you were doing there. It's like such an interesting world where the idea flow we talked about before, like engineers and most people, there's less of the just hours of flow, but now the agents can kind of just remind you, "Here's where you're at." The reset to switch almost is easier because you don't have to relearn everything. You don't have to reunderstand the code base and the architecture. You can kind of just like, "Okay, but here's what we're trying to do." It's kind of like both, got better, got worse.
01:11:39 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[01:11:39] S0: If you have 20 agents running, there's just endless checking in and reviewing and you have to remember what you were doing there. It's like such an interesting world where the idea flow we talked about before, like engineers and most people, there's less of the just hours of flow, but now the agents can kind of just remind you, "Here's where you're at." The reset to switch almost is easier because you don't have to relearn everything. You don't have to reunderstand the code base and the architecture. You can kind of just like, "Okay, but here's what we're trying to do." It's kind of like both, got better, got worse. [01:12:12] S1: Well, it's interesting because I used to book out focus time, the focus time for coding because you want that dedicated, and then the whole context switching, and then it's interesting now that because I can context switch more with more async agents, I'm noticing I do actually have to go back and block a focus time for me to catch up on all the different async work that I've kicked off. [01:12:32] S0: Yeah, do you have any thoughts on the solution there? Because that's hard just like people just want to do more and more, and just how do you do that without constantly context switching? It's really hard and annoying. [01:12:43] S1: Yes, I agree. [01:12:45] S0: Open question. [01:12:45] S1: Definitely I haven't cracked it yet.
01:12:45 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:12:45] S1: Definitely I haven't cracked it yet. [01:12:48] S0: So interesting. Okay, there's a question I thought of as we were talking that I'm so excited to hear your answer on that. I wasn't even planning to ask this, but it's so important these days, which is just like engineering jobs and hiring. So interesting that you would think AI would make engineers less necessary. On the other hand, it feels like you guys are hiring engineers like crazy, OpenAI's hiring engineers like crazy, just there's so much demand for engineers. Where do you think this goes? What do you think about just the future of the end role? And this big question, but just thoughts?
01:13:21 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:13:21] S1: Actually, I'll share some vulnerability here. Speaking of big open questions, I really do think how we grow the next generation just because how you and me got to our engineering path is just so different. It's almost like okay, now when you graduate from school, it's like, "How do you fast-forward?" But the important thing to me, but still understand that double click I talked about to the layer of a need, but that is a big question I have, and I wish I have the answers, but I wonder if it's for software engineering, it's almost like you go more towards a fellowship or apprenticeship program. I know it's odd because technically we have internships that would, but those were kind of like three months and little projects, but I do wonder, and I wish I have a crystal ball here, but it's like how do you almost cram, and maybe it won't matter, but some of the life experiences that we all got, how do you actually enable us to teach that to the next generation of builders? [01:14:28] S0: Right, if you don't have to ever look at code, what's the incentive for a new software engineer to truly understand how infrastructure works and memory allocation, all these things that are kind of foundational? [01:14:42] S1: And it's interesting, maybe the models will get good enough that it doesn't matter. [01:14:46] S0: You don't have to worry about it.
01:14:46 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[01:14:46] S0: You don't have to worry about it. [01:14:48] S1: But I do think there's something about that double click because I think that's where there might be an opportunity to improve the product or the system, but figuring out how to learn that not necessarily by years of- [01:15:01] S0: Of typing code. [01:15:03] S1: Yeah. Like years of- [01:15:01] S0: Of typing code. [01:15:03] S1: Yeah. [01:15:04] S0: Yeah. Somebody's got to have to understand code at some level. It's like some COBOL engineer they have to pull out of that retirement one day. Do you remember how to write Python? [01:15:13] S1: You know actually what's really fun, one of my previous managers, he started software engineer when it was punch cards and it's so fabulous. He's been messaging me everything he's been building with Claude Code and I'm like, wow, what a career that you go from. He's really seeing this whole change. So maybe I think for us to think about is when I think about his career, how he got started with punch cards was also totally, totally different than now. I think it'll be interesting for us to see what remains important and then what changes in terms of importance and then it's like how do you gain... I have a theory, maybe that's what is important will shift over time. And then how do you build the proficiency in doing that?