Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:19:06 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:19:06] S1: Yes. Actually, I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday and he actually is not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really needed to update this feature to also have a mobile footprint. And it was just amazing. He's like, "You know what?" And it's common because you might think, wait, but I'm not like an Android expert. But now, thanks to Claude, actually I can actually have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces. And so that definitely resonates. It's lifted the ceiling of what anyone is able to do. [00:19:39] S0: So let me follow that thread, as the role has transformed in such a crazy way, some people are thriving, some people super frustrated, unhappy, fighting, resisting. What do you see common across the people that are doing really well, the engineers that have adapted and are thriving versus the engineers and even outside engineering that are just frustrated and having a bad time?
00:20:04 · Fiona Fung
[00:20:04] S1: I would say a growth mindset really, really helps. Actually, even before AI tooling, I found that has been just so valuable. And I learned that a lot. Actually, it was the shift from Microsoft to Meta. That first year I'm like, "Oh, this is what having a growth mindset really means." It's really this concept of always be learning, also what served you to get you to this point may not serve you no longer. But it's really hard because of course everybody, we've all gotten to the state by acting or operating in a certain way. And so sometimes it is a little bit scary to think, "Wait, but I've been successful so far. You're asking me to change what has made me successful." And so I would say the growth mindset has really served me well and I think it's also served others well that I noticed like always leaning in with curiosity and always being able to learn. And then in terms of the frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. And so my advice there is, at least this is how just in life, because we all have... And fear is of course an evolutionary, I didn't study anthropology, but I think it makes sense, right? It helps us make sure we were able to survive and not get eaten by larger predators. But for anything that there is a fear, my advice is kind of lean in and ask, "Okay, what can I do about it? What is within my control?" Because sometimes the frustration comes from fear and feeling like everything is outside of my control and so it's happening to me. And so if you think about, "Okay, what is in your control instead of happening to you, is it happening for you? And then what's something that you might be able to do and change?" I felt that's been helpful, because if not, it is super frustrating to have the fear and then feeling like everything's outside of your control. I actually remembered when I was in, actually when I was in high, it's funny when we were going back to IBM, when I was in high school, I actually didn't go into computer science or engineering. I really wanted to be a visual artist and this is how far back we go. Back then, computers were really expensive. So I actually didn't even have access to a computer. My first access to computer was grade nine, I think in high school. I don't even know if this happens in high school anymore.
00:22:20 · Fiona Fung
My high school had a typing class where you went to class just to learn how to type on a keyboard and learn to be really proficient and that was my first time and then the next class was maybe like some HTML programming. So anyways, but the reason why I fell in love with it was what I love about art is creating and being able, if you have an idea, you can go ahead and create and tell a story. And then I realized, oh, computers and programming, that enables me to do that. So anyways, I tried to really fast try to make up for all the science classes for me to get into university, but I had this fear of, "Oh, but how will I afford to get into an engineering school?" And it was this big unknown. I grew up in Ontario, so I was very grateful. I knew there was an Ontario School Assistance Program, OSAP, I think, which I'm very grateful for. But I didn't know how much of that would cover my tuition or expenses and it was just this unknown and it would be like a year out. And I remember thinking, "Okay, what can I do about it?" And then as luck would have it, the National Bank of Canada just posted this flyer in our high school saying, "Hey, we're hiring high school interns to be a bank teller." And I remember, and of course it was going to be minimum wage, but I thought that could be a lifeline. But it was funny because the class I hated the most in high school was accounting, so I don't know if it would be any good at it at all. But I signed up to be a bank teller and that ended up being such a great decision because I worked all summer, saved up. And then actually I was able to work as a bank teller on the weekends. So I would go to school Monday through Friday and then on Saturdays be a bank teller. And that ended up being this lifeline that enabled me to pay for all my school expenses. And we talked about the year 2000 dot com crash that when folks weren't hiring as much interns actually, I continued being a bank teller for two years. But that was the one action I felt I could take that was within my control to try to counter this fear I have of, "If I'm really going to go down this path, I don't even know if I could have afford to go to school." So that's probably my other advice of growth mindset and the source of frustration or anxiety. If it's coming from the like, see, is there one action that's within your control that you can take.
00:24:40 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
There was a saying do some things. What would you do if you're not afraid actually? Those were my two favorite things before like, "What would you do if you're not afraid and do something scary once in a while?" Because- ... Are my two favorite things before, like what would you do if you're not afraid and do something scary once in a while? Because that's also usually how we grow. I found that when you're really good and professional at what you do, you're kind of at peak maximum efficiency. But then how do you keep growing is you then do something scary that you might not have done before and yeah, you will have a dip because you need to learn, but that's kind of how you keep pushing yourself to learn. [00:25:23] S0: The quote that I have probably used the most on this podcast of all quotes is, "The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek." [00:25:32] S1: Oh, I love that. [00:25:32] S0: Yeah. And it's so true. I forget who put this, but just the thing that is scariest is like, that's a compass towards that's what you should be doing. In terms of career. [00:25:42] S1: I'm going to steal your quote.
00:25:42 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:25:42] S1: I'm going to steal your quote. [00:25:46] S0: Yeah, please do. Don't do all the scary things. Maybe don't jump off a cliff, but maybe in career moves, it's probably a good choice. So kind of following this path, something that I know that is important to you, something you think about that I also think about is this kind of gap that is forming between people that are just leaning into AI, killing it, doing super well, and then people that are just not. And this is a scary time for people that may be left behind in this new world that is emerging. I know you spent a lot of time with small businesses; that's a big passion of yours, to help people learn how to use AI in their work. Talk about just how you think about that and what maybe we should be thinking about to help folks stay, not fall behind basically.
00:26:31 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:26:31] S1: Oh, I love this. Yeah, it's one of my passion topics because I kind of mentioned growing up in Canada and I moved there when I was a kid. I was born in Hong Kong so I didn't speak any English and my parents had to work all the time. So my grandma who is the best grandmother anyone could have ever asked for. I know everybody thinks their grandma's the best, but I really was so lucky I had the best grandma. She moved with us just to take care of me while my parents were working, but neither of us spoke English, but I was able to learn how to speak English by going to school and speaking with classmates. And when I think about my grandma, it was very alienating for her to be in a new country where, and back then it wasn't as walkable. But one summer I remembered we just happened to find this little yarn shop that was owned by a lady that also spoke Cantonese. And so that became every week we would go to this yarn shop the summer. My grandma found her knitting circle and then I think I learned how to do macrame, which I think is having a comeback by the way. It's always funny to see what's- [00:27:32] S0: Macrame coming back. [00:27:33] S1: Macrame. I think, yeah. Heard it here first on Lenny's podcast. I think macrame's coming back. [00:27:38] S0: All right.