Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:15:53 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[00:15:53] S0: And basically it's like the evolution of test driven development. [00:15:56] S1: Yes. For TDD, because I remember that was a big thing, my gosh, maybe like in the 2000s of the test first and then you can make sure the test fails, then you do actually the code. In principle is really good. But I know I remembered, I myself struggling a bit because it was almost like you have to eat the broccoli first because I was like, "Oh, you have to write this test first." And I just get so much thrill out of shipping and building product. So it's funny, actually the first bug I fixed on Claude Code, I remember asking Claude, "Hey, I want to do test-driven development. Help me write the test first, make sure it's fails and then we'll actually do the fix and then now the test passed." And the fact that used to be that test generation used to just be this tax that I remember having to pay, the fact that that's now automated and you can even revisit all these principles that have been around for a while. But now they actually might be even more efficient just because you have the models that can do more of the work for you. [00:16:51] S0: Yeah, that's so unfair. It just writes the test for you first. So on this point of builders, one of my favorite slides from your talk that I want to ask about is who you are hiring and what you look for in people. And so I'll read what you said there and I want to hear more here. So the two profiles that you now look for when you're hiring are creative builders with product sense and deep systems experts for the hard parts.
00:16:51 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[00:16:51] S0: Yeah, that's so unfair. It just writes the test for you first. So on this point of builders, one of my favorite slides from your talk that I want to ask about is who you are hiring and what you look for in people. And so I'll read what you said there and I want to hear more here. So the two profiles that you now look for when you're hiring are creative builders with product sense and deep systems experts for the hard parts. [00:17:18] S1: Yeah. The deep subject matter expertise, for example, when I first joined Claude Code, we had really great product generalists and then I realized, oh, we were missing folks with systems background. And so that was definitely an area that we needed more folks with systems and distribute systems expertise. And so I would say it's all about trust but verify. The models are really good, but there are definitely a lot of areas that still need the verification. And so wherever you need the deep subject matter expertise, I would say that's an area to definitely still invest in. And the other one is kind of like the product [inaudible 00:17:57], almost like the dreamers. These are folks that usually will be like, "My gosh, you're really passionate about a product." And they have an idea, they build it, and then it's always like looking at the feedback and then iterating and polishing and making sure that the product is a delightful experience. Owning that product end to end, that's another skillset that served us really well on Claude Code.
00:18:20 · Lenny Rachitsky, Fiona Fung
[00:18:20] S0: This super resonates. There's this word ambition. I don't know if you used it, but that's what I thought of as you were talking. That's been coming up a bunch recently in the podcast and other work I've been doing. There's this 10xC engineer I was talking to the other day and he was just like, "I heard about a feature idea." Someone's like, "Hey, we should build this. " And I was like, "No, that's really hard and complicated." And he's like, "But now I'm like, no, no, that's so possible. I just ask Claude Code to do it and he just does it." [00:18:20] S1: Yes. [00:18:48] S0: And it's this whole mindset shift and he's just realizing now it's about how ambitious can you be. Everything is now possible in theory. Now it's about how ambitious and how big can you think versus just like, okay, it's all these stupid little features and things they have to unblock. Does that resonate? Is that something that you think about? [00:19:06] S1: Yes. Actually, I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday and he actually is not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really needed to update this feature to also have a mobile footprint. And it was just amazing. He's like, "You know what?" And it's common because you might think, wait, but I'm not like an Android expert. But now, thanks to Claude, actually I can actually have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces. And so that definitely resonates. It's lifted the ceiling of what anyone is able to do.
00:19:06 · Fiona Fung, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:19:06] S1: Yes. Actually, I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday and he actually is not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really needed to update this feature to also have a mobile footprint. And it was just amazing. He's like, "You know what?" And it's common because you might think, wait, but I'm not like an Android expert. But now, thanks to Claude, actually I can actually have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces. And so that definitely resonates. It's lifted the ceiling of what anyone is able to do. [00:19:39] S0: So let me follow that thread, as the role has transformed in such a crazy way, some people are thriving, some people super frustrated, unhappy, fighting, resisting. What do you see common across the people that are doing really well, the engineers that have adapted and are thriving versus the engineers and even outside engineering that are just frustrated and having a bad time?
00:20:04 · Fiona Fung
[00:20:04] S1: I would say a growth mindset really, really helps. Actually, even before AI tooling, I found that has been just so valuable. And I learned that a lot. Actually, it was the shift from Microsoft to Meta. That first year I'm like, "Oh, this is what having a growth mindset really means." It's really this concept of always be learning, also what served you to get you to this point may not serve you no longer. But it's really hard because of course everybody, we've all gotten to the state by acting or operating in a certain way. And so sometimes it is a little bit scary to think, "Wait, but I've been successful so far. You're asking me to change what has made me successful." And so I would say the growth mindset has really served me well and I think it's also served others well that I noticed like always leaning in with curiosity and always being able to learn. And then in terms of the frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. And so my advice there is, at least this is how just in life, because we all have... And fear is of course an evolutionary, I didn't study anthropology, but I think it makes sense, right? It helps us make sure we were able to survive and not get eaten by larger predators. But for anything that there is a fear, my advice is kind of lean in and ask, "Okay, what can I do about it? What is within my control?" Because sometimes the frustration comes from fear and feeling like everything is outside of my control and so it's happening to me. And so if you think about, "Okay, what is in your control instead of happening to you, is it happening for you? And then what's something that you might be able to do and change?" I felt that's been helpful, because if not, it is super frustrating to have the fear and then feeling like everything's outside of your control. I actually remembered when I was in, actually when I was in high, it's funny when we were going back to IBM, when I was in high school, I actually didn't go into computer science or engineering. I really wanted to be a visual artist and this is how far back we go. Back then, computers were really expensive. So I actually didn't even have access to a computer. My first access to computer was grade nine, I think in high school. I don't even know if this happens in high school anymore.
00:22:20 · Fiona Fung
My high school had a typing class where you went to class just to learn how to type on a keyboard and learn to be really proficient and that was my first time and then the next class was maybe like some HTML programming. So anyways, but the reason why I fell in love with it was what I love about art is creating and being able, if you have an idea, you can go ahead and create and tell a story. And then I realized, oh, computers and programming, that enables me to do that. So anyways, I tried to really fast try to make up for all the science classes for me to get into university, but I had this fear of, "Oh, but how will I afford to get into an engineering school?" And it was this big unknown. I grew up in Ontario, so I was very grateful. I knew there was an Ontario School Assistance Program, OSAP, I think, which I'm very grateful for. But I didn't know how much of that would cover my tuition or expenses and it was just this unknown and it would be like a year out. And I remember thinking, "Okay, what can I do about it?" And then as luck would have it, the National Bank of Canada just posted this flyer in our high school saying, "Hey, we're hiring high school interns to be a bank teller." And I remember, and of course it was going to be minimum wage, but I thought that could be a lifeline. But it was funny because the class I hated the most in high school was accounting, so I don't know if it would be any good at it at all. But I signed up to be a bank teller and that ended up being such a great decision because I worked all summer, saved up. And then actually I was able to work as a bank teller on the weekends. So I would go to school Monday through Friday and then on Saturdays be a bank teller. And that ended up being this lifeline that enabled me to pay for all my school expenses. And we talked about the year 2000 dot com crash that when folks weren't hiring as much interns actually, I continued being a bank teller for two years. But that was the one action I felt I could take that was within my control to try to counter this fear I have of, "If I'm really going to go down this path, I don't even know if I could have afford to go to school." So that's probably my other advice of growth mindset and the source of frustration or anxiety. If it's coming from the like, see, is there one action that's within your control that you can take.