00:21:26 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:21:26] S1: Yeah. It makes total sense. Oh, I'm... Maybe the the other point that I'm making on the... Because I think we're in agreement on the should it sound like... Should I know who I'm talking to on the other side? Okay? [00:21:36] S0: Right. [00:21:37] S1: But I also think that there's a a thing happening now where everybody in my world just assumes that, including you, that we are definitely gonna pass the uncanny valley. It is gonna happen. There will be a world where we cannot... If we choose not to, it will be indistinguishable whether we are talking to a human or a machine, both in text and audio format, and potentially even in video format Right. If you're going through YouTube Shorts or whatever and you can't tell the difference if this is real or not. And all I'm saying is that hasn't happened yet. Like, the YouTube Short videos have infiltrated when I scroll through. I can always tell. The audio, I can pretty much always tell. The text, I can almost always tell. For purely LLM created and generated. Right? The models are getting way better. [00:22:26] S0: Right. [00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like
00:22:27 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like [00:22:52] S0: Yeah. So two two answers there. I think one is it's like depending on what you are solving for, this... Answering this question is important or not. Like, in a in a similar way, like, as we think about delivering the best experience, in many cases, it it whether you pass Uncanny Valley and all those Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And you should you should go there. [00:23:13] S1: Because the bar is talking to some United agent. Yeah. That's, like, already terrible. Exactly. You wait in queue for ten minutes. So I'm not I'm not disputing the value
00:23:20 · Mati Staniszewski
[00:23:20] S0: of it. But but... So so I guess on the on the kind of, like, you know, as I think about the... A lot of Silicon Valley companies, I don't think the, you know, the the goal in itself should matter. And I think there's a second piece to it, which I think is important, which is in the same vein, I think it's, like, you know, a lot of obsession about the agent or the AI kind of... The the buzzwords kind of proliferated the the mission of the company itself in many of those places, where at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter across across all of that. It really matters about are you solving the problem for the customer in a quick and good way. So so that's kind of the the the part one where I think I I agree with the hidden general trope that many seems to be, like, focusing on solving without understanding what you're solving for. But to the second thing, I think it's going to happen. I do think that uncanny valley is, in many cases, already crossed. Yeah. I think you might be more so... Also more attuned to it given you are living and breathing out every day than most of the general population. I would say it's almost more like how do we make sure the whole world is prepared where you aren't able to distinguish and you want to get information. I think this will be super important that you know that there is a AI agent on the other side, that that content might be created with AI. You want to know that information or at least know that this is generated by human and they kind of assume that everything else is AI. So I'm, you know, 99.9% Yeah. That in most of the cases, the uncanny value will be crossed, and we need to, like, kind of work on preparing on how you make sure that society functions as a whole.
00:24:50 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:24:50] S1: And by the way, I believe you. Not... I mean, I do think you're talking in your own book, but I also believe you, and that's why I'm asking that's why I'm asking you. Like, you've been engrossed in this. [00:24:58] S0: No. I've [00:24:58] S1: I've better than anybody. [00:24:59] S0: You know, like, I I honestly think if... Even if it doesn't cross for kind of mission of our company, we still will be will be [00:25:05] S1: I completely agree. Like That's why [00:25:07] S0: I think it's, like, not us kind of tied in that side, but... So you you... So you think there's more than 50% chance we'll not cross Uncanny Valley? [00:25:15] S1: So I do wanna make a point about ElevenLabs because I do believe that you do not need to cross the Uncanny Valley in order to be a huge company. [00:25:24] S0: No. But do you think that Uncanny Valley will not be crossed in a lamp setting and voice setting and [00:25:28] S1: It's more like, okay. If it is crossed, then every movie moving forward will always be generated by an LLM. Why in the world would you create a movie that is just so much more work to do all the things if you can just tell it what you want it to do?
00:25:45 · Mati Staniszewski, Joubin Mirzadegan
[00:25:45] S0: But I... It's like, you know, like, I I I don't think it will happen the way that that... And so maybe we are... Like, I'm answering a different thing. I don't think it will be end to end in in any short perspective of time. I think it's going to be more like middle to middle where AI is not going to replace the entirety of the person creating a movie, but it will replace parts of it. That's why the middle to middle where you will have started with an idea, and then it will help you draft the first set of scripts. And it will help you vocalize the first set of scripts, find the voices that are right for that script. And then you'll refine that, and then you will repeat this process a few times, and then you have the end result that's in in the end probably a combination of human and and AI. And I think this will end in a result in the category two of what you started with where you you kind of have AI or, like, human AI AI... Human AI human, where this is indistinguishable. I think in that case, this will happen. I think this is where... Like, the the 99.9%, I think, is in that category. Will you be able to generate a movie from scratch at level of quality and creativity, ingenuity as the as the human would? For, like, you know, like, in many cases, I don't think you will, but but there will be definitely use cases where, yes, where where where that still will be possible. [00:27:05] S1: Yeah.
00:27:05 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:27:05] S1: Yeah. [00:27:06] S0: I... Yeah. I think it's going to be like a, you know, like a... Like, same same like in the current, I think. Let... Let's take movie as an example. Like, even currently, you you have rare this kind of sparks of incredible creativity where you're watching something that's completely new or different. Mhmm. And I think this will still remain. Like, you will need a lot of idea of process generation from the human side, but then you will be able to generate a a longer tail of content that's okay. It's still enjoyable to watch, but it might not have required that kind [00:27:37] S1: of entirely new new idea. The interesting question that I keep circling back to is, like, if you've crossed the uncanny valley for a three minute clip, why can't you cross it for two hours? And if you do cross it for two hours where I cannot tell, then why wouldn't a director just give their entire script that they wrote to an LLM? And then it can be, like, put it in the style of Goodfellas with the punchiness of whatever. Right? And it just does it. And then maybe there's some tuning or whatever. I'm just saying, like... And if that's true Right. If that is possible, what... That would be insane. [00:28:18] S0: Like No. But... And and I agree, and I think this I think this will be possible. But coming up with Goodfellas [00:28:24] S1: Yeah.