00:18:41 · Mati Staniszewski, Joubin Mirzadegan
[00:18:41] S0: Oh, no. I I so 100% agree on on on that part. Like, ideally, you do know. It's preempted, and it's it's a good experience. Right. So I think I think, like, yeah, I I I would decouple those two points too. It's like you want the resolution as quickly as possible. And then two, does being human voice or human experience help you to get to that resolution? In some cases, it does. In some cases, it doesn't. It's like in customer support, no. You want the content. You want the actions. You want the intelligence to be well connected. You want to know the information about you. You want to know you are speaking with AI agent to help you resolve that case. And then let's say you are in a gaming context. You are in an immersive game in Fortnite. That's a kind of example of of of a game we we worked with with Epic Games to bring Darth Vader experience to the game. You want to make it feel as emotional as possible, as real as possible. [00:19:28] S1: Just like Darth
00:19:28 · Mati Staniszewski
[00:19:28] S0: Vader. Just like Darth Vader. Exactly. And... Or, like, you know, by emotional here, you want a, like, pretty pretty raspy, a pretty serious tone of the of the experience. In customer support, you you you you don't, but then there there is a very different experience depending on who you are. So, like, you know, let's say you or I want... You wanna ask ask quick to the resolution, quick responses across across the conversation. We recently worked with a customer support company in health care in in Japan, and they had this case where a lot of their population calling in is older, and then they have a small proportion of people that are younger. It was effectively a widget on top of the of the website, and they had they had the information about who is reaching out for help. And both the voice part, but also just the style of how the information gets delivered was drastically different between those groups and led to much different results between between those groups. So if you had a younger person reaching out for help, you want it relatively quick. You want it relatively short in style, straight to the information. If you get an older person, you wanted to make it a slightly more calmer, less emotions, a lot longer responses, lot slower responses. So in this case, it really matter depending on on the context of who's calling in. And in the same way as you think about a human, we don't... You know, like, you have a human responding on customer support in that same client, what you really wanted to do is to be able to alter depending on who you are speaking with and what type of experience you deliver and then what leads to the resolution. Resolution. And that's where I think it matters that you make agents versatile to help across all those different use cases. I don't think we should force them to be emotional or human in any of those cases. It's more of, like, how does it be able to be... Is able to adapt to the to the use case at hand and kind of bring it to the resolution in a in a way that's understandable.
00:21:26 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:21:26] S1: Yeah. It makes total sense. Oh, I'm... Maybe the the other point that I'm making on the... Because I think we're in agreement on the should it sound like... Should I know who I'm talking to on the other side? Okay? [00:21:36] S0: Right. [00:21:37] S1: But I also think that there's a a thing happening now where everybody in my world just assumes that, including you, that we are definitely gonna pass the uncanny valley. It is gonna happen. There will be a world where we cannot... If we choose not to, it will be indistinguishable whether we are talking to a human or a machine, both in text and audio format, and potentially even in video format Right. If you're going through YouTube Shorts or whatever and you can't tell the difference if this is real or not. And all I'm saying is that hasn't happened yet. Like, the YouTube Short videos have infiltrated when I scroll through. I can always tell. The audio, I can pretty much always tell. The text, I can almost always tell. For purely LLM created and generated. Right? The models are getting way better. [00:22:26] S0: Right. [00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like
00:22:27 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like [00:22:52] S0: Yeah. So two two answers there. I think one is it's like depending on what you are solving for, this... Answering this question is important or not. Like, in a in a similar way, like, as we think about delivering the best experience, in many cases, it it whether you pass Uncanny Valley and all those Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And you should you should go there. [00:23:13] S1: Because the bar is talking to some United agent. Yeah. That's, like, already terrible. Exactly. You wait in queue for ten minutes. So I'm not I'm not disputing the value
00:23:20 · Mati Staniszewski
[00:23:20] S0: of it. But but... So so I guess on the on the kind of, like, you know, as I think about the... A lot of Silicon Valley companies, I don't think the, you know, the the goal in itself should matter. And I think there's a second piece to it, which I think is important, which is in the same vein, I think it's, like, you know, a lot of obsession about the agent or the AI kind of... The the buzzwords kind of proliferated the the mission of the company itself in many of those places, where at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter across across all of that. It really matters about are you solving the problem for the customer in a quick and good way. So so that's kind of the the the part one where I think I I agree with the hidden general trope that many seems to be, like, focusing on solving without understanding what you're solving for. But to the second thing, I think it's going to happen. I do think that uncanny valley is, in many cases, already crossed. Yeah. I think you might be more so... Also more attuned to it given you are living and breathing out every day than most of the general population. I would say it's almost more like how do we make sure the whole world is prepared where you aren't able to distinguish and you want to get information. I think this will be super important that you know that there is a AI agent on the other side, that that content might be created with AI. You want to know that information or at least know that this is generated by human and they kind of assume that everything else is AI. So I'm, you know, 99.9% Yeah. That in most of the cases, the uncanny value will be crossed, and we need to, like, kind of work on preparing on how you make sure that society functions as a whole.
00:24:50 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:24:50] S1: And by the way, I believe you. Not... I mean, I do think you're talking in your own book, but I also believe you, and that's why I'm asking that's why I'm asking you. Like, you've been engrossed in this. [00:24:58] S0: No. I've [00:24:58] S1: I've better than anybody. [00:24:59] S0: You know, like, I I honestly think if... Even if it doesn't cross for kind of mission of our company, we still will be will be [00:25:05] S1: I completely agree. Like That's why [00:25:07] S0: I think it's, like, not us kind of tied in that side, but... So you you... So you think there's more than 50% chance we'll not cross Uncanny Valley? [00:25:15] S1: So I do wanna make a point about ElevenLabs because I do believe that you do not need to cross the Uncanny Valley in order to be a huge company. [00:25:24] S0: No. But do you think that Uncanny Valley will not be crossed in a lamp setting and voice setting and [00:25:28] S1: It's more like, okay. If it is crossed, then every movie moving forward will always be generated by an LLM. Why in the world would you create a movie that is just so much more work to do all the things if you can just tell it what you want it to do?