00:16:02 · Mati Staniszewski
[00:16:02] S0: Yeah. But I'm thinking even on the human side. If you are comparing, you know, just... So even let's ignore voice, and and I have my my take on voice as well, where just on the text level, if you're comparing customer support beyond by AI agents versus humans, I think many people wouldn't be able to tell, and it's probably a better result altogether. If if we are thinking about, like, more of a creative case and, like, a narration for a movie or a conversational dialogue, I think there, yes, it's a little bit harder to get on the on, like, a high end part to get something comparable. On the voice side, on the uncanny valley piece, I think in the narration space, I think you can get the results from voices that people won't be able to tell are not narrated by human. And we've seen this across so many so many places where an audiobook created is just so good that people that people are, like, both immersed. And I don't think if you kind of ask them point back, is it better or worse, they would be able to to tell. In the conversational setting, I don't think we passed uncanny value for all types of use cases. I think we passed it in call center application. I think we passed it in in some of the customers that support experience use cases. But let's say in immersive media or gaming or personal AI type typespaces, I don't think it passed down kind of very, like, Turing test in all settings. Like, we are speaking now. We can interrupt each other at any point. We can move pretty quickly, pause. We can... There's, like, a reasoning and and voice that's combined to get us one. That moment has not yet, I think, happened for conversational setup.
00:17:39 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:17:39] S1: But you're convinced it will. [00:17:41] S0: I think it will. Yeah. I think it will. Hopefully, we make it happen. So... Yes. I'm biased as well, I guess. [00:17:47] S1: Yeah. You're biased. That's fine, though. Like [00:17:48] S0: But even VoteVoice. So you think in that conversational setting, you would be able to tell today, I presume, if you are messaging with an AI straight away that this AI or, like, after a few exchanges? [00:17:59] S1: Yeah. So I And you think it will happen? So I have I have two points that I'm making. One is certainly on on... In most cases, I can tell. Okay. Second, I don't even think it's a bad thing that I can tell. I guess what I'm really questioning is why do we want them to sound and feel like a human? Meaning, if I am chatting with United, okay, or if I'm on a phone call with United, I don't actually care if it's a human or an LLM on the other side. In fact, I would rather know. And what I care about is how quickly can you get to resolution. That's all I care about. And in fact, it would maybe give me a little bit of peace of mind if I know what's on the other side of the person that I'm talking to.
00:18:41 · Mati Staniszewski, Joubin Mirzadegan
[00:18:41] S0: Oh, no. I I so 100% agree on on on that part. Like, ideally, you do know. It's preempted, and it's it's a good experience. Right. So I think I think, like, yeah, I I I would decouple those two points too. It's like you want the resolution as quickly as possible. And then two, does being human voice or human experience help you to get to that resolution? In some cases, it does. In some cases, it doesn't. It's like in customer support, no. You want the content. You want the actions. You want the intelligence to be well connected. You want to know the information about you. You want to know you are speaking with AI agent to help you resolve that case. And then let's say you are in a gaming context. You are in an immersive game in Fortnite. That's a kind of example of of of a game we we worked with with Epic Games to bring Darth Vader experience to the game. You want to make it feel as emotional as possible, as real as possible. [00:19:28] S1: Just like Darth
00:19:28 · Mati Staniszewski
[00:19:28] S0: Vader. Just like Darth Vader. Exactly. And... Or, like, you know, by emotional here, you want a, like, pretty pretty raspy, a pretty serious tone of the of the experience. In customer support, you you you you don't, but then there there is a very different experience depending on who you are. So, like, you know, let's say you or I want... You wanna ask ask quick to the resolution, quick responses across across the conversation. We recently worked with a customer support company in health care in in Japan, and they had this case where a lot of their population calling in is older, and then they have a small proportion of people that are younger. It was effectively a widget on top of the of the website, and they had they had the information about who is reaching out for help. And both the voice part, but also just the style of how the information gets delivered was drastically different between those groups and led to much different results between between those groups. So if you had a younger person reaching out for help, you want it relatively quick. You want it relatively short in style, straight to the information. If you get an older person, you wanted to make it a slightly more calmer, less emotions, a lot longer responses, lot slower responses. So in this case, it really matter depending on on the context of who's calling in. And in the same way as you think about a human, we don't... You know, like, you have a human responding on customer support in that same client, what you really wanted to do is to be able to alter depending on who you are speaking with and what type of experience you deliver and then what leads to the resolution. Resolution. And that's where I think it matters that you make agents versatile to help across all those different use cases. I don't think we should force them to be emotional or human in any of those cases. It's more of, like, how does it be able to be... Is able to adapt to the to the use case at hand and kind of bring it to the resolution in a in a way that's understandable.
00:21:26 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:21:26] S1: Yeah. It makes total sense. Oh, I'm... Maybe the the other point that I'm making on the... Because I think we're in agreement on the should it sound like... Should I know who I'm talking to on the other side? Okay? [00:21:36] S0: Right. [00:21:37] S1: But I also think that there's a a thing happening now where everybody in my world just assumes that, including you, that we are definitely gonna pass the uncanny valley. It is gonna happen. There will be a world where we cannot... If we choose not to, it will be indistinguishable whether we are talking to a human or a machine, both in text and audio format, and potentially even in video format Right. If you're going through YouTube Shorts or whatever and you can't tell the difference if this is real or not. And all I'm saying is that hasn't happened yet. Like, the YouTube Short videos have infiltrated when I scroll through. I can always tell. The audio, I can pretty much always tell. The text, I can almost always tell. For purely LLM created and generated. Right? The models are getting way better. [00:22:26] S0: Right. [00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like
00:22:27 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Mati Staniszewski
[00:22:27] S1: They've already gotten way better. We haven't crossed it yet. Everybody is telling me we're obviously gonna do it, assuming that scaling laws continue to persist. And all I'm asking is, like, is there a possible world where that's not true? That's, like, kind of my only... Is that, like, is that... Like, I feel almost dumb asking the question because it's, like, it's, like, sacrilegious around here to question the scaling laws, but I'm just curious. Like [00:22:52] S0: Yeah. So two two answers there. I think one is it's like depending on what you are solving for, this... Answering this question is important or not. Like, in a in a similar way, like, as we think about delivering the best experience, in many cases, it it whether you pass Uncanny Valley and all those Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And you should you should go there. [00:23:13] S1: Because the bar is talking to some United agent. Yeah. That's, like, already terrible. Exactly. You wait in queue for ten minutes. So I'm not I'm not disputing the value