00:19:38 · Jonathan Brebner, Grant Lee
[00:19:38] S0: You have to actually do it. [00:19:39] S1: Yeah. Actually have to do it. Yeah. Like any craft, it's something you have to actually do and there's no shortcuts. And even if AI makes certain things easier from a first draft perspective, they're still your ideas and you're still the one telling them, and they have to be authentic. And so that's something I've had much more appreciation for kind of in this past year, just knowing that you have a responsibility to to really get better at that craft. [00:20:01] S0: I'm interested in how you think about it as like storytelling as product. Right? And to the point you just made about like, you can make certain things easier, but ultimately it's still something you are trying to communicate. And and I always sort of wrestle with this. Like, there is value in some amount of struggle with something or, like, putting something down and then having to change it because you don't like it. Right? And and, like, the friction of of trying to get what is in your head in... Like, out into a form that other people can, appreciate. But then there are also the sorts of things where it's like, I really hate this part of it. Right? Like, and for you, you know, that was probably things like, hate having to format these these slides. Totally. Totally. I mean, is this something that you guys talk about internally, right, as you were thinking about the product? Like, what are the things that, oh, like, people actually just really want this abstracted away, but this is where they wanna feel a sense of control and, like, specificity?
00:20:49 · Grant Lee
[00:20:49] S1: Yeah. I mean, I think, we've always considered this to be, you know, human in the loop. Even with AI, it very much is still a tool. And, you know, there's, like, the examples of, you know, Betty Crocker and, like, the cake mix where, you know, they they try to ship a new category of product and they made it, you know, dead simple. You just add water and you're done. And people didn't wanna buy that product because it didn't feel like they did any work. And it didn't feel like when they served that to someone in their household that they put any sort of TLC into. And so then they said, okay, well, now you have to add... You have to buy your own egg and add that egg in and you have to mix it in. And now all sudden you're making the cake. Right? And so even that level of touch makes it feel that the human is actually doing something. And from a product, you know, standpoint, you know, what are the ways you can really involve and help people feel like they're making some decisions. AI can assist you along the way, but ultimately, it's still your choice and you have to have a vision for what the output should look like and hopefully be able to craft that. And so we wanted to make sure that we can create like the building blocks where humans can really much feel like they're involved and ultimately feel like whatever they're putting out there is a true expression of what they want to put out there and not just sort of AI generated, you know, output that's completely untouched by by their input. Mhmm.
00:22:04 · Jonathan Brebner
[00:22:04] S0: Has your thinking on storytelling either as product or as, like, a skill set as a founder to develop, has it changed as you have built the company? Right? Is there... Like, do you think, about it differently now than you did in 2020 or or, you know, in 2019 and, you know, anytime before you started Gamma?
00:22:22 · Grant Lee
[00:22:22] S1: I mean, I think the biggest thing I've appreciated more is that, you know, at every stage of the company, the the the team might need to hear a different type of story. Yeah. Right? When you're just getting started, the story of like belief, like the true zero to one, I have no idea how we're gonna get there, but together we're gonna figure it out. And so you try to focus on the small wins and like may... Making sure that there is this feeling of momentum that's building even if you haven't hit certain milestones. Like it used to be, you have get to like a million in ARR before you feel like you can, you know, go and raise your, you know, whatever series A. And, and I think as part of being a founder, your job is to, how do you feel like you're... The company's making progress when in fact maybe a lot of the work is is kind of blind to like any true milestone. And so that is early on. Then as you start hitting some of these milestones, then it's like, okay, how do you continue to, elevate the company to have even bigger ambition and to make sure that the rest of the company can tell your story or whatever story that needs to be told even when you're not there. So if you have a sales team that needs to pitch, you know, a big, enterprise customer, you as a founder might do it in a certain way, hopefully, even if you're not in the room, the sales team can still emulate that in some form. And so you need to build a creative story that is repeatable and is is used all the time and has the right sort of sound... The sound bites or things that you feel can be easily digestible to to others. And so you're kinda making it almost like, you're trying to create these molds that people can then take and use and kinda craft into their own, you know, way of telling the story. So, yeah, just kinda changes over time. I think the types of stories, the importance of the urgency or the even the level of impact of these stories, all sort of changes. And for me, I don't think I appreciated that on day one, But now living through a few different chapters of growth, you know, I recognize just how important that is to try to get right.
00:24:13 · Jonathan Brebner, Grant Lee
[00:24:13] S0: About yourself as an audience. Yeah. I... One of the things I I often say to, people who come to SPC and and founders that we work with is, like, the very first audience is yourself. Yeah. Right? Like, you actually have to believe it. And if you don't, that's a pretty good sign that maybe this isn't the thing you should build. Right? Go go build conviction on something else. Were there any, like, practical things that as you were working through, okay, how do I... Like, what is the story I wanna tell to the the, team that I'm leading here as it's sort of like evolving over time? Would you do things for yourself in particular to start? [00:24:41] S1: Kind of. I I think the one, really challenging thing... And this is particular to even like content creation for like founders, which this is not their natural thing typically. Like, you know, go on LinkedIn or, you know, Twitter and try to post on things. But I think what's really hard in the beginning is you do want to be your own, like, you know, critic and, you know, go through and, like, read that stuff. But you almost have to go through, you know, Cringe Valley for many, many months before you come out of it feeling like, okay. I'm actually starting to put some stuff [00:25:09] S0: out there that's worthy Valley. I love it.
00:25:09 · Jonathan Brebner, Grant Lee
[00:25:09] S0: out there that's worthy Valley. I love it. [00:25:11] S1: That's actually worthy of being read. Right? And I think most people stop when they hit the the first part of Cringe Valley because it's so painful to, like, read some of your early stuff. You're like, oh, why am I even doing this? And, like... And then you get, like, one like and it's, from your wife or something. Like, okay. Well, yeah, I'm just gonna stop. And I I think it's very tempting to wanna stop there, but you do need to go through that process because, again, going back to any craft is, like, you start getting better. You start seeing what kind of resonates of all the things you want to talk about, like what do people care about? And then you can start double down on, you know, on that category and like refine and get better, read, like understand, like then create the feedback loop of, okay, now I get a better sense of, like, what people care about, how do I incorporate that to the next round? But it's really hard. And I think most of us, you know, once you have that moment of doubt, the easiest thing to do is just kind of stop and go off and do something easier. These are truly long term investments. And, and, yeah, I encourage everybody to try to make it through because I do think the payoff is working.