00:13:36 · Grant Lee, Jonathan Brebner
[00:13:36] S1: Yeah. Sustainable growth, you know, thousands of sign ups growing, growing, growing every single day. And so for better or worse, going through that moment, I think did make us a tougher, more resilient team and also formed kind of this sort of closeness knowing that we were never going to shy away from challenges or like these hard moments and, we're gonna, you know, get through it together. [00:13:56] S0: Yeah. So you you had mentioned there that, you know, at the time your team was... It was the size such that you could fit it into a two bedroom apartment. Right. And and, you know, you you... One of the kind of notable things about Gamma is that you've remained relatively small. Right? And, I remember when the, you know, you shared that you were going to announce the the series B that, the thing that really stood out is the 2,000,000 in ARR Right. Per employee Right. Which really just, like, drives home kinda how successful this lean team has been. Was that a very conscious decision that, like, look, we we want to actually try to keep the teams smaller. You know, was it related to, like, we've been through that kind of an experience where it's like, like, look at what we were able to do at that size? Or, how have you thought about team growth as your company has grown?
00:14:42 · Grant Lee
[00:14:42] S1: Yeah. So it's never been with a specific ARR per employee goal in mind or like, oh, let's keep the number of... Under a certain, you know, head count under a certain number. But it is much rooted in us wanting to, you know, be scrappy, to have the mindset of always wanting to do more with less, and to to really try to be as, you know, efficient as possible every step of the way. Certainly going through the SVB, you know, collapse also just rec... We recognize that, you know, I think Paul Graham calls it like cockroach mode or whatever it means, like, be so resilient that you can survive anything. I do think a lot of that, you know, started at that point. And then part of this was also we... We've always had this internal saying, we're going to hire painfully slowly. And a part of that is a cultural thing in that we want to be able to feel that, you know, we're opening a new role, we know exactly what we're looking for. In many instances in my part of the, you know, the company where a lot of these functions are going zero to one, I've never led marketing. So when I go out and try to think about, okay, how do I build a great marketing team? I really felt like I needed to do part of the job myself so I can have a deeper appreciation for what it actually entails. I oftentimes think about this as like, you're not trying to become an expert necessarily in in that particular function, but you're you're serving as reconnaissance. You're going out. You're scouting what this role looks like. You now know what look great could could be because you know how hard the role is. Yeah. And when you go interview people, you actually know what to ask. And you know where maybe there are some of the traps in terms of maybe simplified thinking or oversimplified thinking. And can someone go deep enough to actually help you navigate, you know, what's to come? And so for me, it was actually really helpful. And then when we eventually hired our head of marketing, I felt like I was well equipped to be able to actually assess whether or not she'd be a great fit. And, you know, she's been in this role now for for almost a year. I was trying to lead marketing before that and she's been amazing, built a great team. I think a lot of that is attributed to the that foundation we laid early on.
00:16:36 · Jonathan Brebner, Grant Lee
[00:16:36] S0: Yeah. So hire painfully slowly in that, like, you have to go experience the pain of not having someone. Yeah. [00:16:42] S1: Yeah. Don't default to hire. Default to, like, knowing what you're actually trying to accomplish. [00:16:47] S0: Okay. I mean, it it brings up a subject I wanted to focus on a little bit that that I I spend a lot of time thinking about, which is, related to marketing, storytelling. Yeah. One of the things I saw recently was, that you... Correct me if I'm wrong, but had referred to, Gamma recently as a storytelling platform. [00:17:04] S1: Visual storytelling. [00:17:05] S0: Yeah. Right. And I'm interested in your take on the idea of storytelling as, a a skill set. Right? Because obviously, you know, you create tooling for that skill set for, a particular kind of it. Right? But it is fundamentally about, like, how do we make this easier? First of all, just, like, how do you think about storytelling as a skill for a founder in, that early stage, right, where you're perhaps still thinking, like, I have to know what it's like to be, like the head of marketing before I can go and hire the marketer. I know what that means from a storytelling perspective or talking to a investor who says [00:17:40] S1: Yeah. [00:17:40] S0: This is the worst idea ever. You
00:17:42 · Grant Lee
[00:17:42] S1: know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is where... To your point, it comes in many different, you know, forms, different shapes, and all of that is critical. As a founder, you are storytelling in many different ways. To your point, part of this is like selling your own vision and you'll have to, you know, sell investors on, you know, why they should even believe in what you're trying to do and and the team you have. You're gonna have to constantly sell the vision of, to future candidates and employees and like, why should they even care to join you when there's a million other startups doing interesting things that are maybe even more well funded than you. And then of course, you have to sell your customers around like going back to behavior change, like, why why should they waste any time in your tool when another tool can do the same job? And and so there's that element of it. I think there's also just, you know, storytelling being just this timeless skill. It's obviously deeply rooted in just how humans build relationships, how information gets spread. And so for us, like even if we get to play one really small, you know, sliver of that role across many different types of people, like that excites us because there's not... Nothing in our minds that creates higher leverage than being able to help people communicate more effectively. It's gonna bring us together, it's gonna help us innovate. And so for us, it's it's inspiring to know that we can play a big role in that and play a role on a global basis. Like obviously, storytelling is not limited to to just people in The US, it's it's global. It's a need that's universal. So that's always been what's really been inspiring for us. And as I've become just, you know, more sort of kind of acknowledging that other forms of storytelling might take shape in like marketing. And like how do we build a brand that people recognize and want, you know, that resonate with with a lot of people? How do you tell, that in a compelling way and trying to just get better at that craft? I always encourage, you know, founders to think about now stepping into becoming a creator or an influencer in in a way because you can be your company's megaphone. But that is a skill that needs to be developed over many, many, you know, months, years, maybe decades.
00:19:38 · Jonathan Brebner, Grant Lee
[00:19:38] S0: You have to actually do it. [00:19:39] S1: Yeah. Actually have to do it. Yeah. Like any craft, it's something you have to actually do and there's no shortcuts. And even if AI makes certain things easier from a first draft perspective, they're still your ideas and you're still the one telling them, and they have to be authentic. And so that's something I've had much more appreciation for kind of in this past year, just knowing that you have a responsibility to to really get better at that craft. [00:20:01] S0: I'm interested in how you think about it as like storytelling as product. Right? And to the point you just made about like, you can make certain things easier, but ultimately it's still something you are trying to communicate. And and I always sort of wrestle with this. Like, there is value in some amount of struggle with something or, like, putting something down and then having to change it because you don't like it. Right? And and, like, the friction of of trying to get what is in your head in... Like, out into a form that other people can, appreciate. But then there are also the sorts of things where it's like, I really hate this part of it. Right? Like, and for you, you know, that was probably things like, hate having to format these these slides. Totally. Totally. I mean, is this something that you guys talk about internally, right, as you were thinking about the product? Like, what are the things that, oh, like, people actually just really want this abstracted away, but this is where they wanna feel a sense of control and, like, specificity?
00:20:49 · Grant Lee
[00:20:49] S1: Yeah. I mean, I think, we've always considered this to be, you know, human in the loop. Even with AI, it very much is still a tool. And, you know, there's, like, the examples of, you know, Betty Crocker and, like, the cake mix where, you know, they they try to ship a new category of product and they made it, you know, dead simple. You just add water and you're done. And people didn't wanna buy that product because it didn't feel like they did any work. And it didn't feel like when they served that to someone in their household that they put any sort of TLC into. And so then they said, okay, well, now you have to add... You have to buy your own egg and add that egg in and you have to mix it in. And now all sudden you're making the cake. Right? And so even that level of touch makes it feel that the human is actually doing something. And from a product, you know, standpoint, you know, what are the ways you can really involve and help people feel like they're making some decisions. AI can assist you along the way, but ultimately, it's still your choice and you have to have a vision for what the output should look like and hopefully be able to craft that. And so we wanted to make sure that we can create like the building blocks where humans can really much feel like they're involved and ultimately feel like whatever they're putting out there is a true expression of what they want to put out there and not just sort of AI generated, you know, output that's completely untouched by by their input. Mhmm.