00:54:40 · John Coogan, Jordi Hays
[00:54:40] S1: That's great. Alright. Back on on China, do you agree with my perception that if there is some sort of lockdown on Chinese open source export controls, that would not affect [00:54:56] S0: Yeah. Are they mad that American companies are distilling on or or post training their open source models? [00:55:03] S1: It was by design. That was goal of the project. But I what what I'm what I'm interested about is is would they try and claw back access to Kimi or GLM, any of those models that are already been deployed? Because there's an element of, like, once the the weights have been downloaded, it's sort of just out there. Of course, you could go and try and, like, sue every company, but that's very hard if you're in an American jurisdiction and you're a Chinese company. But how would you see that playing out? Would it just be going forward, no more open source, and that's the CCP telling Chinese companies or some other shape of of of, like, restriction?
00:55:03 · John Coogan, Vincent Weisser, Byron Boots
[00:55:03] S1: It was by design. That was goal of the project. But I what what I'm what I'm interested about is is would they try and claw back access to Kimi or GLM, any of those models that are already been deployed? Because there's an element of, like, once the the weights have been downloaded, it's sort of just out there. Of course, you could go and try and, like, sue every company, but that's very hard if you're in an American jurisdiction and you're a Chinese company. But how would you see that playing out? Would it just be going forward, no more open source, and that's the CCP telling Chinese companies or some other shape of of of, like, restriction? [00:55:43] S3: Yeah. I think it's really hard to know. I think, like, a good example was, like, in some extent, like, the most popular Chinese malts already have been closed for Nommo, is coin. Right? Like, in some ways, like, they've actually, like changed their licensings Mhmm. And stopped almost closing. So I think there will be both, like, companies changing their policies, right, but then also I think like, probably like state intervention, right, it's like in different shapes or form. Mhmm. So I think basically, one can't rely on the steady stream of frontier open, like, releases out of China in many ways, but it's, like, brought from different perspectives. And I think, similarly, a lot of other sovereigns, like, obviously, including The US also doesn't want to build on on necessarily Chinese op mods. It's like Mhmm. [00:56:23] S2: I think
00:56:23 · Byron Boots, Vincent Weisser, Rodrigo Liang
[00:56:23] S2: I think [00:56:23] S3: a lot of American enterprises, obviously, also, like, sovereign use cases, like, need American op mod, but I think similar for for other continents. Right? It's like, I think there there's been a lot of work, obviously, and and we're, like, collaborating with people also across Europe, across India, across other geos. So it's like, I think we'll we'll see a much more, like, multipolar, I think, open, like, ecosystem of, like, open frontend models. So I think that's, like, a healthy, like, balancing away from just relying on Chinese open models, even though they've obviously, like, been a great accelerant of, like, open source progress. I think it's also unhealthy to rely just on that ecosystem. [00:57:01] S4: Yeah. [00:57:02] S3: And, yeah, like, I think we'll be like, there will be, I think, a bunch of, like, quite unpredictable changes similar to all. Like, the last few months have been quite unpredictable Mhmm. I think, to everyone involved. So I think this will continue to be the case in the sense that it will be, like, quite a dicey policy like, AI policy landscape for the next few years. Mhmm.
00:57:02 · Vincent Weisser, John Coogan
[00:57:02] S3: And, yeah, like, I think we'll be like, there will be, I think, a bunch of, like, quite unpredictable changes similar to all. Like, the last few months have been quite unpredictable Mhmm. I think, to everyone involved. So I think this will continue to be the case in the sense that it will be, like, quite a dicey policy like, AI policy landscape for the next few years. Mhmm. [00:57:21] S1: Last question. Data centers are data center construction, new data center construction, deeply unpopular in America domestically. Simultaneously, the workloads that are being done in AI data centers are basically latency is basically irrelevant. For training, certainly, for most inference tasks, if you're waiting a couple minutes for a result, an extra five hundred milliseconds to get across the world isn't gonna This feels like a recipe for global competition, for aggressive data center expansion in a country that does see it favorably, that does see an economic boom from it, or does have a lot of energy. What is the state of the non domestic, non US data center build out?
00:58:09 · Vincent Weisser, Jordi Hays, Rodrigo Liang
[00:58:09] S3: Yes. So, like, we're certainly, like, building a lot of data centers and, like, partnering with a lot of them, like, outside of The US as well. But, like, I think there's still a lot of demand, actually, for data centers in The US. Think, like, even from a data perspective, like, there's a lot of now, like, the financial industries and and highly regulated industries, like, also adopting, obviously, more and more agents and and compute. I do think inference still matters. I like speed in a sense, like, maybe not for, like, long running agents, but, like, for a lot of use cases, people, I think, still really care about, like, having extremely snappy, like, responses. But I think, like, there there's definitely, I think, like, a general boom in data center build outs outside of The US as well. I think there's just, a limited set of countries who are, like, strong, like, allies with, like, ample amounts of, like, like, geopolitical stability, but then also, like, like, energy and and and and green like like, green fields and and enough space. [00:59:01] S0: Yeah. US has unique access to natural gas [00:59:04] S4: Mhmm. [00:59:04] S0: Which is if you're trying to bring energy online super quickly, it's hard
00:59:08 · Vincent Weisser
[00:59:08] S3: to beat. Yes. And I I think, like, we we're seeing this across Europe even where, like, there's specific regions, right, like, are, like, much more active in data center build outs than others, and and those are generally the ones that, like, have their own, like, money internalized on them and, like, cheap energy and and a lot of, like, also local support for it. So I think, like, in general, from what we are seeing, I think there's, like, there there is new entrance almost, like, to to the data center build outs, where it's, like, in places like Australia and New Zealand, like and and, like, a small much small place, right, like, Armenia, Kazakhstan, and others, who, like, have a huge amount of energy and and huge like, and and making huge bets also on data centers by a while also being, like, allies of The US. So I think those are the countries, I think, generally, which will see the biggest boom in data centers. I think at the same time, like, I think we'll also continue to see see a boom in US data centers. But, yeah, there there's definitely it's definitely harder to get data centers in The US than outside of The US, and and so it's where I think we'll we'll see both continuously expand. And then I think there there might also be, obviously, like, your point, like, policy, like like, updating for like, what was the upcoming elections and and in midterms, I think, I think, like, this this whole almost, like, populism in in The US around, like, data centers and, like, a lot of the the kind of, I think, public sentiment as as potentially also, like, sovereign influences and other things, like, from other nation states who who are trying to harm almost, like, The US data center build out. Yeah. So I think there's, like, a lot of things at stake for The US, right, it's, like, to to not pull back on on their data center build out. But I think there will also be specific states who are, like, leaning in much more heavily than others. Right? Like, I I think this is already what we're seeing where, like Texas. Exactly. So it's, like, there's specific states in The US that are just, like, much more well suited to really ramp up data centers from here. Mhmm. And yeah. And I think we'll we'll see them ramp up globally and and hopefully also outside of, like, beyond Earth. And I think Yeah. Like I think this is the only way to really probably scale.