Acquired
03:27:38 · David Rosenthal, Ben Gilbert
[03:27:38] S1: So okay. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Seven. Seven. Even more money. Yes. Even more money. [03:27:42] S0: So that scale economies. That's that's an obvious one. Counterpositioning. I think this may be the most extreme example of counterpositioning ever. Right. Bogle did something that was essentially noneconomic. There's no economic incentive to create this company in the first place. Their their ownership and fee structure was an advantage that cannot be replicated not only by a a a competitor who would be, like, concerning and destroy their their business, but, like, anyone else who tried to do this would make no money. [03:28:15] S1: Yes. Extreme counter positioning. Now, interestingly, it still took, like, the better part of two decades to get real adoption for this, but I think that's largely because it also took a while for all the mechanisms to Yes. Really get put in place. [03:28:29] S0: I think that's right. [03:28:30] S1: Yep. I don't think there's really network economies here. Nope. There's certainly no switching costs, especially once ETFs are on board. In the traditional mutual fund industry, yes. But ETFs I completely disagree. Eliminate switching costs. Oh, you disagree? You disagree. [03:28:44] S0: There's no chance that I'm gonna sell by Vanguard index fund and realize the capital gains tax only to switch to a different index fund. [03:28:52] S1: Sorry. I was thinking about switching costs in terms of a customer relationship.
03:28:52 · David Rosenthal, Ben Gilbert
[03:28:52] S1: Sorry. I was thinking about switching costs in terms of a customer relationship. [03:28:56] S0: But But that's this kinda unbelievable thing about how if you're a fund manager having someone invested, if they can let the compounding continue unabated [03:29:04] S1: Right. [03:29:05] S0: They should. [03:29:05] S1: Right. Right. Right. And not realize realize the capital gains taxes. Okay. Yep. [03:29:10] S0: Fair point. So I think this is inherent in the fund business model. Mhmm. Mhmm. Especially the open ended public fund business model. [03:29:18] S1: That's a great point. Yep. I do think ETFs meaningfully change this equation for Vanguard, but in a sort of side way, just simply that the customer relationships could now be ported out of Vanguard easily. [03:29:32] S0: Out of Vanguard, the brokerage. [03:29:34] S1: Yes. [03:29:34] S0: But not out of Vanguard, the fund. [03:29:36] S1: Yep. Branding. Branding. I mean, god, the bogleheads, the Warren Buffett endorsements, like, the decades of building the brand. [03:29:44] S0: I'd have to think back to when I first started buying index funds, but I probably picked Vanguard over a Fidelity fund because they both looked de minimisly low fees. And I was like, oh, Vanguard's probably the right thing I'm looking for. [03:29:59] S1: Really hard to replicate Warren Buffett saying that a statue should be erected to Jack Bogle and that he's a hero to the American public and to Now
03:29:59 · David Rosenthal, Ben Gilbert
[03:29:59] S1: Really hard to replicate Warren Buffett saying that a statue should be erected to Jack Bogle and that he's a hero to the American public and to Now [03:30:09] S0: interestingly, there is some wholesale transfer pricing because of the S and P licensing, where the branding is a Vanguard S and P 500 index fund, and Vanguard probably has to pay a good amount of what it makes on that fund to S and P Global. [03:30:26] S1: It's gotta be the biggest single component. [03:30:28] S0: Yeah. Of course. Yep. Process power. There's something unique in the culture at Vanguard. I think people make noneconomic decisions to work there because they're motivated by the mission, and it might also attract a set of people that are not interested in being in New York City finance. [03:30:50] S1: Yep. I think that's totally true.
03:30:50 · David Rosenthal, Ben Gilbert
[03:30:50] S1: Yep. I think that's totally true. [03:30:52] S0: Yep. Cornered resource. I don't think it exists. I don't think so. Alright. That's power. Should we do quintessence? Alright. Quintessence. Here's mine. So we haven't talked about this yet, but I think it kinda comes down to this. Jack had the insight that running a successful mutual fund is actually not a differentiated product. It is a commodity. Yep. What you are seeking is the highest possible long term return on your capital. That is not like buying a unique piece of jewelry. It is like buying a soybean. I mean, this industry that for decades had sort of sold itself on uniqueness, there isn't a unique thing you're seeking. It is just a risk return profile over a long period of time. And so in commodity markets, it is a different set of things that determine a winner versus differentiated product markets. Scale really matters. Brand really matters. And most importantly Low cost. The lowest price is the market clearing price. If someone's selling undifferentiated coffee beans or soybeans or oil for a dollar lower than you are, your demand goes to zero, and they get all of your demand. And he realized that, actually, the public equities investment business is that. And so if you need the lowest price, then you need the lowest cost structure. [03:32:23] S1: I like that. I might suggest a modification. [03:32:25] S0: Please. I'm open to it. [03:32:27] S1: I would suggest that Jack bifurcated the public equities market into commodity and noncommodity. Before Jack and before That's interesting.
03:32:27 · David Rosenthal, Ben Gilbert
[03:32:27] S1: I would suggest that Jack bifurcated the public equities market into commodity and noncommodity. Before Jack and before That's interesting. [03:32:42] S0: He invented a commodity sleeve of [03:32:45] S1: It was all differentiated all marketed as differentiated products. Selling the dream of outsized returns. Jack took a huge chunk of that, broke it off, and said, nope. This is a commodity market. I still do think there is a successful and thriving industry selling the dream. [03:33:02] S0: I mean, clearly, there's an existence proof of that. [03:33:04] S1: And some of them deliver on it. But, yeah, Jack broke off a huge chunk of it and created a new market. [03:33:10] S0: Yeah. I love the quote that he he has. The the grim irony of investing is that we investors as a group not only don't get what we pay for, we get precisely what we don't pay for. Yes. That's great quote. Whole realization around investors as a whole are the market. It is zero sum. So, therefore, if you're gonna own the market, you have to do so with the lowest possible fees. And I think the thing that kinda makes it all work is holding for duration. There's gonna be lots of funds that you can be in that will outperform in fits and starts. But if you wanna be the in the upper decile after forty years, then it turns out owning the market with no fees is an almost surefire way to do it. Yep. Yep. Not investment advice.
03:33:10 · Ben Gilbert, David Rosenthal
[03:33:10] S0: Yeah. I love the quote that he he has. The the grim irony of investing is that we investors as a group not only don't get what we pay for, we get precisely what we don't pay for. Yes. That's great quote. Whole realization around investors as a whole are the market. It is zero sum. So, therefore, if you're gonna own the market, you have to do so with the lowest possible fees. And I think the thing that kinda makes it all work is holding for duration. There's gonna be lots of funds that you can be in that will outperform in fits and starts. But if you wanna be the in the upper decile after forty years, then it turns out owning the market with no fees is an almost surefire way to do it. Yep. Yep. Not investment advice. [03:34:00] S1: Not investment advice, but, know, hey. Warren says it. So Yes. Look to him. Which leads me right to my quintessence. My quintessence is that Warren Buffett was right. The world and America should erect a statue to Jack Bogle. And specifically, my quintessence is that more than almost any other episode I can think of, the Vanguard story and Jack's story is proof that one single human being really can change the world. This is not a product or an idea whose time had come. [03:34:36] S0: You don't think? [03:34:38] S1: Not like this. Not like this. Index funds probably would have come. Technology had gotten there. [03:34:45] S0: Ah, but a mutual ownership. [03:34:46] S1: But mutual [03:34:47] S0: ownership via loss leaders.