00:23:14 · Jay Madheswaran
[00:23:14] S0: And they even have ominous sounding software like Colossus, which tracks... They try to basically say, A broken thumb? This is how much we think it's worth, which is a hard thing to do, for in their defense, it's a hard thing to do, but they are doing that, but also saying, this is how much we can get away with giving them away for, and irrespective of that individual's actual need of their particular situations. And that's what the legal system is meant to fix. That's what it's there for. And what now is happening is, and this is the interesting bit and the challenge, is if you go and Google, how do you write an amazing demand letter against State Farm for soft tissue injury cases? That today exists nowhere. Even for a new paralegal that is joining a plaintiff firm, this is something they have to learn. And on top of that, it gets more complicated, because when you're in local jurisdiction, the local environment, like the court systems, your opposing counsel, they all behave a little differently, and that context matters too. So what Eve is doing is it's turning this historically incredibly difficult to utilize multi attribute, multidimensional information that is basically, what is the best thing I can do at this particular moment to improve the outcome of the case? Yeah. And that same question is repeated thousands of times during the case, and a human brain is just not capable of keeping all of that in mind. But AI is. And that is the type of data we help build for law firms, and they're seeing the immediate value from it. And the first place where they see value is, of course, intake. Who do I even take on? Who am I good at representing? And maybe start there, and keep getting better.
00:25:02 · Alex Rampell
[00:25:02] S1: Right. And I imagine because these aren't giant firms, right, like if I'm a lawyer in New Jersey with a four person, four attorney practice, And over there, there's another lawyer in Arizona with a seven attorney practice, but their counterparties tend to be State Farm and GEICO and and and whatnot. At The Limit, it's actually fine to share information. I guess, how do you think about data? Because I met... This is always a... This is always, you know, hard for companies when you're getting off the ground. It's like, no. No. This is my data. But there's also... There's a give to get, I assume. It's kinda like, you know, I I work with a a dental AI company, and it's like, well, the dentist in Iowa can't serve patients in Florida, but they want to learn from the collective actions of each other. But I guess how do you think about, you know, just data sequestration and and whatnot? Does that ever become an issue, or how do you think about using it?
00:25:59 · Jay Madheswaran
[00:25:59] S0: We've largely followed the rules of engagement that already exists in this industry, but we've amplified it with software. That's kind of our stance. So rules of engagement is, for their own cases, they want to be very private. That is important by law, it's attorney client privilege, and we don't train on that data ever. However, what attorneys also do is to share this knowledge, they actually travel, they attend CLE, and they share tactics with each other on how they went up against State Farm's X and Y defense, because State Farm repeats that defense across the board. And not picking out State Farm, is fair game here, but that is what they're already doing. So we hire our own attorneys and track success rates of cases for our platform, and we want to help. If you're using Eve, you should have more success. That's what we track. And we have this product called Auditor, which actually analyzes every single case through every single page overnight, and looks for situations that a perfect attorney would catch every time. And across the board, unfortunately, vast majority cases have... Almost every single case has missed information. Right? And now that's no longer a thing.
00:27:14 · Alex Rampell
[00:27:14] S1: Yeah. And maybe talk about the future of where where things go. Because on the one hand, I can imagine a world where it's like, one of these days, GEICO's gonna get a little bit smarter, and they're probably going to... Like, you see, their deny deny deny plan. That's how they got smart before. Right? Because they realize it is an adversarial system. Like, you know, I lost my house in a fire, and I'm going to claim I had a Picasso in there. And then they're gonna think that I'm claiming that I have a Picasso. They're just gonna deny the claim. Deny. Deny. So each party is kind of fighting each other, but they're going to get superpowers. I mean, you see this playing out a little bit with Muse and all the consumer agents where I want a reservation at this restaurant that's impossible to get, and they have a human answering the phone. I can DDoS them now that I have to pay 1p per hour or something. And then eventually, they're going to realize that they're getting DDoSed, and they're gonna prevent that. So, you know, I guess, on the one hand, like, how do you think about, you know, your your adversaries here? Not not your adversaries, but, like, your clients' adversaries. How are they adapting to a world where it's like, you know, it was great for GEICO where they could say, hey. You have $2,000 of damages. The consumer's like, yeah. I did have maybe $2,500 of damages, but it's like they never really had to worry about that before because of the quantum. And now, unfortunately for them, but fortunately for the Davids of the world, like people that are actually aggrieved and and have been victims, now they can fight back, and you're powering that. So that's kind of one thing. But, also, you mentioned long horizon agents because, you know, what does the practice of law look like when a lot of the stuff can actually be done by AI? You had... You... I think you you framed it as, like, the the attorneys are almost like the data scientists of the future. But, you know, maybe talk about, like, what does the adversary or the adversarial process look like? You know, what what what are the the skate farms and geikos using potentially as a result of you entering the scene? But, also, like, how... Big, big question.
00:29:12 · Alex Rampell
But how does law evolve and emerge just given that you're kind of manipulating words and finding facts and doing all this kind of stuff, or like the humans are not as important? They obviously have an important role of shepherding the case to completion, but like what does the AI do versus not do?
00:29:29 · Jay Madheswaran
[00:29:29] S0: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, my my framework for thinking about this is ultimately when you have an individual, they're gonna need representation. Whether that representation, like who does the work on the representation, you can assume it's 99% AI, maybe 99.9% AI. There's always going to be that little bit that is the human touch. And we do believe that people are going to make a positive difference to the outcomes of the case, and that is exactly what you have. So what do you have on the defense side, or really institution side, is what's always happened, which is they have more resources, they have more money, they have more time, which is actually another weapon they have, which is quite powerful, when individuals are in debt to pay their fees, and that is a very powerful tool they have. And that is the strengths they're working with, and they're trying to rely on centralization and standardization. On the defense side, you have a attorney that is fighting your case, and pushing them to get to litigation. And I think that is going to be what happens. I think a lot more cases are going to have teeth, and all the routine back and forths, I think is going to happen through agents talking to agents. It's a crazy future world, but I think that's where we're headed to. And the difference maker is, what does the attorney understand about that client, that set of facts, and their local environment of who they're going up against locally in that defense firm, and they're using that insight to make a difference for their client. And I don't think that ever goes away. It's in fact something we're seeing already, where many customers on Eve are actually choosing to spend more time on their trial work, because it actually enables that. Previously, going into trial took down your entire firm. Suddenly, you're just spending all your time doing trial prep, interviewing juries.