The Skip Podcast
00:51:52 · Nikhyl Singhal, Dianne Penn
[00:51:52] S1: Yeah. You're describing something that's not super different from where we may have been even five years ago, where it was hard to scale. Your note around this forward deployed concept does tend to both have a scaling challenge, but also you only get one data point in your node is you need to not only know what the broad industry is using, but also where things are heading. So it's a lot of information to keep and you don't want to sway yourself in one data point. [00:52:17] S0: One thing that is helpful though, is we've actually had folks from our apply, like forward deployed engineering teams, then transfer into my team as PMs. And they've been exceptional because they understand they have spent time being really deep with users and understanding harnesses, understanding user applications, understanding user motivations. And so then they are... They can bring it back into research. It's just very hard to do that, for example, at the same time. And they actually bring us such a diverse point of view to the team because they've been so embedded in the past. So maybe that's just the one adjustment. [00:52:56] S1: Well, and maybe that's the modern day APM program. The modern day APM program could be the forward deployed engineer that in two years we say that's what, you know, if you couldn't found a company, you know, that perhaps was the best way for you to get your feet wet and exactly how the products would be used and on the latest and most cutting edge kind of constraints.
00:52:56 · Nikhyl Singhal, Dianne Penn
[00:52:56] S1: Well, and maybe that's the modern day APM program. The modern day APM program could be the forward deployed engineer that in two years we say that's what, you know, if you couldn't found a company, you know, that perhaps was the best way for you to get your feet wet and exactly how the products would be used and on the latest and most cutting edge kind of constraints. [00:53:16] S0: I mean, I went in 2023 on Claude dot ai, which was our only product at the time and it was in beta. Like, I think I personally wrote the system prompt for a while before somebody else on my team came who was a PM, then also wrote the system prompt. Right? Like, so so that's something you do as like a forward deployed engineer. You're like helping adjust harnesses. And so you have to be hands on and it feels potentially too in the weeds potentially like compared to a traditional product management, like career path. But I actually think you could be right that you just have to go into the depth, but then going to the depth is very vague and making it very grounded as maybe be a forward deployed engineer, sit really close to the customer. That's the depth you need to go to anyway. So maybe that's the right way to frame the career path.
00:54:06 · Nikhyl Singhal
[00:54:06] S1: Maybe last question as we round up, It's a little different than others that we've discussed. You've mentioned the importance of keeping the bar really high and keeping the pace really high because it is a very intense environment both in our industry as a whole, but definitely in the labs and the speed of AI has propelled everyone going forward. As your team has grown and you obviously have people at different phases of life, different phases of career, how one sustains the pace must be a conversation you have, I would argue, maybe every week with your team. And you also must have developed a little bit of a playbook of what has helped maintain boundaries, how it's helped people that last. I mean, you've been there for quite some time. How have you been able to sustain the pace and how have you been able to coach others to kind of manage their energy, their time, and kind of prepare for the marathon that's ahead of us here?
00:55:04 · Dianne Penn
[00:55:04] S0: We talk about this all the time on the team and kind of almost in like a reminder format. I actually have a doc around like working sustainably. A couple of things. Number one is because of role, like we're again, coming back to like questioning assumptions, right? Because you're... If somebody is working, let's say really all out on a sprint, they should take time off afterwards. When you're on time off, you're fully taking time off. If there's something not super urgent, and we're very thankful for our generous, like PTO policies. But if you want to take a random Wednesday off and you're not on critical path on something, like go do that. Right? Like not assuming you have to butt some seat nine to five, during the weekday. I think that's actually just like giving people... Making people feel like they have the flexibility. It's important to naming it. We actually are having a team day off today because I also force us to like kind of go go take PTO. And it's actually one where, like, some other teams are also kinda picking up in the spirit of it, just, like, making it a norm. I think the other thing is when you're working, like, having, like, what we create as more pods. So maybe there's... Instead of one person that has all the context about a subject, maybe you have two. Because, like, what's really hard is if you come back from PTO and you have two times of work that you left with, you're not actually getting rest the first... You're not feeling replenished in your first twenty four hours back. But if you had somebody who's almost your copilot in a context with, like, your same approach, you might be coming back and there's some things to pick up, but you're not at critical path immediately. And that's been important. And I think also having like more of this pod or co pilots allows context sharing to be just like scaled up versus like what, again, one person having it be the only, only piece. So for example, we have PMs that are kind of in a pod across like reasoning and efficiency and like they can kind of share knowledge with each other, which, which again, just reduces the pressure and the intensity when you're not the only person that might, be responsible. And then I think like that also allows like me to scale. Like I really have, I feel like really thankful for a lot of the team and how much everyone has grown.
00:57:30 · Dianne Penn, Nikhyl Singhal
And like, there are many areas that I am no longer as deep now than I was in the past. Like I want to be. But like, because some of the leads are like, just have scaled up so much. I don't have to be as much. So it's very much like, how do you bring people into the conversations you're in such that they can be like different versions of you or like, you're so mind melded with each other that they don't have to necessarily wait for you to tell them what to do. They know what like the Dianne on their shoulder would have wanted to see get done and have done that. And that I think like allows people also to just be even more high agency and help help the team, I think, scale. [00:58:12] S1: It's so helpful. We should publish your doc because I think that it would help the whole industry because everyone calls me and says that the pace is sort of intense. A lot of those notes, I think, were really helpful. Dianne, thank you so much for the time and energy and insight and helping all the product managers that are out there with one of the more interesting jobs in our industry. I know you're having a great time learning and building the infrastructure for the future for all of us, so I couldn't be more appreciative. And for all of you watching live, I appreciate your time as well and your questions. And we look forward to another episode of the podcast. So thanks again. [00:58:49] S0: Thank you so much, Nikhyl, for having me.