A Product Market Fit Show | Startup Podcast for Founders
00:43:23 · Pablo Srugo, Aaron Schumm
[00:43:23] S1: So the other, the last thing I want to talk about and we have a few minutes here. Is we talk a lot on this show about hiring, finding the best talent, but I want to talk about the other side of that. Which is firing, because as you mentioned to me, nobody has perfect hiring. Nobody in the world, which means if you're doing your job, you're looking not just at bringing in the right people, but letting go of the people that are wrong for whatever reason. You have a bit of a ten percent rule or at least a heuristic. Where you think on a regular cadence about who are the bottom performers and how can we deal with that. Tell me more about that side of the business. The talent side, especially the getting rid of bottom performers side of the equation. [00:44:00] S0: Yeah, I mean, it changes over the cycles of a business, right? And how you're maturing. I would say the early days, right? A lot of it is Gut check, right? I think the earliest days, it's hard, right? Because I was trying to convince people to come on board. I was literally just paying people out of my pocket. Hey, just come on. I need you for that. I was like, I need a front end guy. I need a back end engineer. [00:44:19] S1: Yeah, I'll tell you about the early days. One thing that for me was always true, is you do so much work personally bringing the people on. The last thing you want to do is let go of anybody. You're like, I just know how much work it's going to take to replace it and it's so painful.
00:44:34 · Aaron Schumm
[00:44:34] S0: It's true, it's true. I mean, it's still true in a lot of ways, right? You get key players on the team to a point and then you're like, oh, I got to cut this person. I got to, re-get, you know, train someone else in this. That is painful but, you know, one thing I did early was I did not hire people as part of the C suite. So every hire I made, they were a VP or SVP or whatever, and what I did was like, hey, I want you to be CTO or CFO or whatever it is, right? But I need to see you kind of grow into that where I feel confident and I'm going to start you here. Because if I have to layer you and I have to hire someone above you, I have that space to do that. It doesn't become a demotion talk to someone else. Say, hey, you're on the team, you're gonna get your first crack at growing into these shoes to play this role but I need to see it, right? And they're pretty specific to what you see. Now, over time though, there are some people I brought on early that just didn't have it, right? And I was just like, ugh. I'm like, okay, if I can get another three months out of this person and then I'm going to go hire someone in the background behind there. I did that a lot, right? Where I was just like, they're going to have to move on. I can keep the lights on with them in the seat now, but I got to get someone that brings a different skill set that we're going to need for this next turn and that happens a lot. And you got to be honest with people with it, right? It's like, hey, you may really like someone. I have, you know, there is a lot of people on this team that have been here a long time. That maybe haven't, they haven't just gone up the ranks of the hierarchy of the org chart. But, you know, you have honest conversations with it. They're like, hey, I'm good with that. Like, I only want to be an individual contributor. I only want to do this and that's fine. So then you just, if you have those real conversations, it's easy. You know, it's harder when you get people who don't want to have that conversation or they have an overinflated sense of self. That's like, hey, it's not you. You know, there are times I remember I worked with people that I go, I should be this or I should be that. Like, no, because I have worked with other people in that role and they'll run circles around you, right?
00:46:32 · Aaron Schumm, Pablo Srugo
And, you know, and sometimes you just have that conversation with people. I've had to off board lots of people and I'm just like, hey, it's time. Let's come up with an elegant kind of off ramp here and we're going to move on. And that's okay, you know, maybe it's not the way you want it but it's the right thing for the business. And I think that's the key thing is, you always have to look at the business and say, what is the right thing for this business? You got to cut your own personal emotions out of it, which is hard to do but you have to do it. Because if you don't do it, you're going to make poor decisions. [00:47:04] S1: Here's a specific question on that. I have this kind of role myself, which is if a founder comes to me as the, you know, the VC partner in that company. And says to me, I've got this VPX, VP marketing. Let's say, I'm just not sure about them. I think I might let them go. My answer is always like, if you're coming to me with that, you got to do it. It's a done deal because if you've having the doubts and the doubts are so high. That you're like, I need to ask somebody else about my doubts. You're already past the doubt phase. You're actually, the decision is made. I don't know if you agree with that just in terms of a gut check.
00:47:04 · Pablo Srugo, Aaron Schumm
[00:47:04] S1: Here's a specific question on that. I have this kind of role myself, which is if a founder comes to me as the, you know, the VC partner in that company. And says to me, I've got this VPX, VP marketing. Let's say, I'm just not sure about them. I think I might let them go. My answer is always like, if you're coming to me with that, you got to do it. It's a done deal because if you've having the doubts and the doubts are so high. That you're like, I need to ask somebody else about my doubts. You're already past the doubt phase. You're actually, the decision is made. I don't know if you agree with that just in terms of a gut check. [00:47:33] S0: Yes, wholeheartedly. I think, you know, the old adage, you never regret firing someone too soon is very true. Even though it's painful, there is a number of people I remember, especially the earlier days, right? Now we're big, we're like, it's not as noticeable. But, the early days, I remember there were some key people that I'm like, this person has to go and they're just like, no, no, no, no. They can't go, they can't go, you know, they're still good for that. I'm like, no, get them out and then they're gone the next day or whatever. And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, it's not that bad without them. [00:48:04] S1: It's better usually, yeah. Other people shine as a result.
00:48:04 · Pablo Srugo, Aaron Schumm
[00:48:04] S1: It's better usually, yeah. Other people shine as a result. [00:48:07] S0: There are some people that we've let go even recently that was like, it was like a weight was lifted off the business. You're like, oh, yes, thank you and then people have a lot more open dialogue. And sometimes you got to do that. [00:48:18] S1: Perfect. Well, listen, let's stop it there. But I'll ask the question we always end on. What would be a top piece of advice you find yourself giving early stage founders often? [00:48:29] S0: I think stay true to yourself and focus on the outcome, is really kind of the key thing. It is so easy to get caught up in noise and lose sight of where you need to go, right? And I'm just as guilty of this, right? Especially the early days, because everything's coming at you and you're just like. You're working, you know, endless hours and I think you almost have to just cancel the noise around you. Like social media, all that stuff. It's literally like doesn't exist in my life. I have my family and I have Vestwell and that is it, right? And I just focus on that because otherwise the rest of it will start to pull you in directions that are just not attitude to your life, and it's hard. And if you're passionate about it, like I am. It's a lot of fun, too, right? And you just keep grinding through it. [00:49:07] S1: Aaron, it was great having you on the show, man. Thanks for spending the time. [00:49:07] S0: Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
00:49:07 · Aaron Schumm, Pablo Srugo
[00:49:07] S0: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. [00:49:07] S1: So picture this. It's months from now, years from now and one of your founder friends. A really close founder friend of yours, guess what? Their startup went bankrupt and it turns out if you had just shared the Product Market Fit Show with them. They would have learned everything they needed to find Product Market Fit and to create a huge success. But instead, their startup has completely failed. You have blood on your hands. Don't let that happen. You don't want to live like that, it is terrible. So do what you need to do. Tell them about the show. Send it to them. Put it on WhatsApp. Put it on Slack. Put it where you need to put it. Just make sure they know about it and they check it out.