01:13:38 · John Coogan, Doug O'Laughlin, Jordi Hays
[01:13:38] S1: Are you starting to see this, like the long rumored neo lab to neo cloud pivot happen yet? Either of you, I guess. Doug? [01:13:49] S6: On on the margin, I think so. Yeah. I think people are... People really wanna be selling tokens. Uh-huh. If you look on the the fact that DeepSeek v 4.1 is probably the reason why all these types security hacks are happening Mhmm. It's pretty clear that if you have the gigawatt and you can you can place it with an open source model, you know, I I wouldn't call that, like, a Neo Cloud, but, like, tokens as a service, I think, is going to increasingly happen, especially as the volume of open source models continues. Also, I wanted to adjust one thing. Please. I feel like Elon is shitting on the Neo Clouds because he's also a Neo Cloud. Yeah. He's just like, I'm I'm I'm the biggest Neo Cloud. Those guys just aren't as good as me. That's really what it [01:14:27] S1: comes out. No. I mean that that's... No. Said that exactly. He was like, yeah, if you don't have other revenue. [01:14:31] S0: Yeah. The the the points that he's making are self serving but it also makes sense that a lender would rather lend to somebody that like has revenue that's diversified. So it's it's like you he can be like trying to further his own interest while at the same time like being like having like a pretty coherent like thought [01:14:52] S1: that Both [01:14:53] S0: can be true.
01:14:53 · Jordi Hays, John Coogan, Doug O'Laughlin
[01:14:53] S0: can be true. [01:14:53] S1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What what what else can you tell us about the nature of all the cybersecurity threats? Like, how much is it actual inference of deep seek, as you mentioned, versus just piggybacking on cyber, you know, different exploits that have been discovered by other folks? Like, how how relevant is compute in the cybersecurity battles that we're seeing playing out right now? Do you have a do you have a grapple on that yet, Doug? [01:15:22] S6: Mean, I think I think compute's pretty relevant here because it seems like a bozo model can probably hack your your your infrastructure. It doesn't really take much. I think the bar is surprisingly low, and I think it's in all of our interests, like, not to talk about how low the bar is, if I'm gonna be honest with you. Okay. [01:15:39] S0: And I [01:15:40] S6: think the the other... The... Like, it's it's, like, it's, like, surprisingly low. The other thing I think that's, like, also really kind of messed up is how asymmetric it is. It's kind of like a drone. You know? Like, it costs, you know, a $100 to fly the drone into the tanker, and it costs, like, you know, like, $2,000,000 to shoot the drone out of the sky or something. Yeah. That that dynamic, I think, is very replicated in AI as well. Meaning defense is... Costs, like, probably an order of magnitude more than a... Than than an attack. Mhmm. We've done some work on the attack side. The attack side, like, the raw tokens that come out of it, it's like it's like pitiful. It's like a $100 or something. It doesn't take a lot.
01:15:40 · Doug O'Laughlin, John Coogan, Jordi Hays
[01:15:40] S6: think the the other... The... Like, it's it's, like, it's, like, surprisingly low. The other thing I think that's, like, also really kind of messed up is how asymmetric it is. It's kind of like a drone. You know? Like, it costs, you know, a $100 to fly the drone into the tanker, and it costs, like, you know, like, $2,000,000 to shoot the drone out of the sky or something. Yeah. That that dynamic, I think, is very replicated in AI as well. Meaning defense is... Costs, like, probably an order of magnitude more than a... Than than an attack. Mhmm. We've done some work on the attack side. The attack side, like, the raw tokens that come out of it, it's like it's like pitiful. It's like a $100 or something. It doesn't take a lot. [01:16:16] S1: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. How... [01:16:18] S0: Yeah. It's such an interesting problem because we were talking earlier on the show of like, does there need to be like large scale white hat bounties, you know, billions of dollars allocated to like incentivize good people to go after and find these vulnerabilities, but at the same time, imagine introducing the chaos of like... I was using the example of like a Miami course bro being like, anyone can become a millionaire finding like vulnerabilities. Right? And they're like, here's how you take the obliterated obliterated model, point it at, you know, this legacy, you know, you know, Fortune 500, and all of a sudden, it's just like total anarchy.
01:16:56 · Doug O'Laughlin
[01:16:56] S6: Also, obliterated models, like, they can do the hack, but, like, you also shouldn't trust them, if that makes sense. Like, you don't really trust their incentives to, like, actually listen to you. Like like, the same problem of, like, steering it a little different also means that it could be doing things that you don't intend. Right? Yeah. You're giving it instructions, but you're like, okay. Hack it now. Fix it. It's like, well, wouldn't it be nice if there were some API keys? Right? And then then it can, like, you know, self proliferate it, like, the worst case. Sure. I think that that's kind of the big concern. And and, like, I'm sure you guys saw when when the hacks were going around. I mean, I still think there... The hacks are still going around. Yeah. Someone That had, like, a deep sea swarm essentially, like, know, patching old PHP. They're, like like, hack into old PHP and then patch it themselves. Yep. So pretty much, the only person that can stop a bad swarm is a guy with a good swarm. Guy with a good swarm. What I'm trying to say.
01:17:45 · John Coogan, Doug O'Laughlin
[01:17:45] S1: Yeah. Yeah. How how are you thinking about advising clients on the risk to an open source ban for neo clouds? Like because some of the neo clouds seem very dependent on open source models but at the same time like the Anthropic S1 shows that the neo clouds can sell compute to closed source labs very profitably as well. So how are you balancing those risk factors right now? It feels like we went through the whole Jensen letter. There was a lot of energy towards don't ban open source, but now we're also post PHP. [01:18:21] S6: Yeah. I don't know. I think... I mean, did you guys see the thing on feed today about, like, essentially, like, trying to go back to an Alibaba cloud? Like, I think Yeah. Yeah. Those go here. Those are the kinds of anecdotes that creates, let's just say, like, a blanket wide industry ban. I really don't... Like, it's... We're in a really interesting time where it's, like, really reflexive. Like, clearly, something has happened. Yeah. Something has changed. And is it that we are just like, okay. Swarm up. Use more compute, or does the government say, like, fix this. Right? Like... And the government saying fix this is probably saying these class of models are now illegal. Right? And so that is a potential. I don't really know when you're in, like, these really special reflexive moments. Yeah. It takes very little headline to move the entirety of a vibe one way or the other. Totally. So we'll see what it kinda shakes out as.
01:18:21 · Doug O'Laughlin, John Coogan
[01:18:21] S6: Yeah. I don't know. I think... I mean, did you guys see the thing on feed today about, like, essentially, like, trying to go back to an Alibaba cloud? Like, I think Yeah. Yeah. Those go here. Those are the kinds of anecdotes that creates, let's just say, like, a blanket wide industry ban. I really don't... Like, it's... We're in a really interesting time where it's, like, really reflexive. Like, clearly, something has happened. Yeah. Something has changed. And is it that we are just like, okay. Swarm up. Use more compute, or does the government say, like, fix this. Right? Like... And the government saying fix this is probably saying these class of models are now illegal. Right? And so that is a potential. I don't really know when you're in, like, these really special reflexive moments. Yeah. It takes very little headline to move the entirety of a vibe one way or the other. Totally. So we'll see what it kinda shakes out as. [01:19:10] S1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even if there's no ban there there's there... We were talking about like the the carrot is like bug bounty maybe from the government, but the the stick is like something that's not quite nationalization, but it's the government saying like, I am ordering you Anthropic, OpenAI, Google to devote millions of dollars in compute to setting up swarms to go patch the internet and fix Yeah. Everything. And you have to do it. Like you have been conscripted for this and maybe it's a tax write off. But like you gotta...