01:08:53 · Jordi Hays, Alex Spiro, Derek Blasberg
[01:08:53] S0: What what advice do you give to lawyers at the firm that are early in their careers that want... That are thinking about how to build their own brands and for better or worse, like Aura. Right? Because, you know, it doesn't really make sense for somebody to just try to be like a mini version of you or a mini version of of John or or whoever it is. Or or is that... Or is is it flipped and you should just try to be exactly like you? [01:09:20] S2: No. Don't don't do that. Don't do that. No. I tell them be yourself. You know, it's it's it's a sort of sounds like a cliche, but it's true. You know, when somebody is intimidating and can act a certain way and bark, it works for them if they are in fact intimidating. If you're not intimidating, start acting like that. You look you look like you're trying to do something you're not. You look at a character. And and listen, there are many ways to be effective. There are quiet, soft spoken, methodical trial lawyers. It doesn't have to be, you know, the barbarian at the gate. And then if you are true to yourself, if you stay in that character and you win cases Mhmm. That's a good way to develop a reputation. [01:10:00] S4: Mhmm. Right?
01:10:00 · Derek Blasberg, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays, John Coogan
[01:10:00] S4: Mhmm. Right? [01:10:01] S2: I mean it it's it's really not a complicated formula. When I left being a prosecutor, these these... I I mean I always have to tell these stories, there was one guy who came and he's like, well I need to see your business plan. And I and I don't have a business. I told him. I said, I'm just gonna just be myself and I'm gonna win cases. That's that's the plan. I mean, there's no... That's the plan. [01:10:19] S0: Mhmm. So, yeah. Best way to build a personal brand is to be really great at your craft and win a lot. Don't worry about anything Well, [01:10:28] S2: what I was gonna say before and I'll I'll say it here, which is it's a unique profession when there is a winner and a loser of each battle. Mhmm. You know, and and that's... That allows the, you know, [01:10:38] S1: But what about... [01:10:39] S2: That allows people... [01:10:40] S1: What about like so many of cases they just get settled and both sides can kind of claim victory or there's fear of victories... [01:10:48] S0: Feel like they lost. [01:10:50] S1: Or both sides really lost like how often do you actually feel like you got the full victory? [01:10:56] S2: If I'm going all the way, I think I have to go all the way for [01:10:59] S1: a Yeah. Right? [01:11:01] S2: And if I don't think that I'm... You know, obviously, wouldn't settle at the point that I'm settling at or or resolve the thing at the point of resolving it at if I don't think it's the the right risk adjusted deal. [01:11:11] S1: Yeah.
01:11:11 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro
[01:11:11] S1: Yeah. [01:11:11] S2: Yeah. So why ever to... You know, you're never really losing that. If you're not afraid to go all the way and you think you you have some edge, you're either going to get a favorable outcome or the the easy way or the hard way. [01:11:23] S1: Yeah. Do do you think we're gearing up for for more cases to go to trial or more cases to settle earlier because of AI tooling, automated discovery? I don't know what else you're seeing in terms of adoption of new technology. But are there any like secular shifts you're sensing coming down the pipe or maybe you're already feeling? [01:11:49] S2: I think AI will eliminate a layer of a lot of things including including my day job. And by eliminating that layer, it allows you to get to the truth and synthesize it faster. [01:12:03] S1: Mhmm. [01:12:04] S2: Okay? And if you can do that, then I think you can make quicker decisions on this is something to resolve, or this is something to go all the way off. Mhmm. And if you can, in maybe, the way it'll work is a lot of the fat in the middle is gonna be cut out. Cases will settle settle quickly or go to trial. Mhmm. And there won't be as much in between litigation that is pointless and [01:12:24] S1: Got it.
01:12:24 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:12:24] S1: Got it. [01:12:25] S2: And sort of ebbing between the two. Yeah. And if that happens, and maybe there are more trials frankly, because people just say, okay, this is the what... We just did an analysis of these 10 cases, these nine should settle, this one shouldn't. Mhmm. We're going all the way, and then people don't get that nervousness that they get. Where some companies, they'll think in their mind, okay, these three are gonna have to be tried, but then they end up caving because they're too risk adverse. [01:12:47] S1: Yeah. Yeah. And then and then in terms of actually at trial, how... Are are you gonna be more focused on a particular a particular piece of an argument or or or arguments gonna be more narrow or more broad because you you you can you can fan out easier and it's lower cost to find every possible point to argue or is that less relevant to a jury so you want to be more focused? How will that change? [01:13:12] S2: I haven't changed my approach to trying cases or how to present in front of a jury in twenty years. [01:13:18] S1: Okay. [01:13:18] S2: Like, I don't even think I've toggled [01:13:20] S1: One thing. Slightly. [01:13:21] S0: Yeah. [01:13:22] S2: Yeah. So the human mind and the and the human mind when it is learning can only follow so many things. [01:13:29] S1: Mhmm.
01:13:29 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:13:29] S1: Mhmm. [01:13:29] S2: It is impacted and persuaded by certain things. There are argumentative techniques that work and some that don't, and those human beings in the jury are not changing based on AI. And so I'm gonna talk to them exactly the same way. It just may be that the people that get me the information that I distill into my arguments, there needs to be fewer of them or they have a simpler more linear path in getting me that information because they have technological tools that make it faster, sleeker. [01:14:01] S0: Yeah. How have you processed how have you processed AI progress? Like, have we solved this... Like, are we still hallucinating court, you know, cases that didn't exist? Yeah. You know, pulling evidence that's made up? Or or was that the same kind of thing that people were experiencing with chatbots three years ago? They were experiencing with with law, but but it it's solved. [01:14:24] S2: I'm no expert on this. I think that case law is one thing, right, which may still have these kinks. [01:14:31] S0: Mhmm.
01:14:31 · Jordi Hays, Alex Spiro, John Coogan
[01:14:31] S0: Mhmm. [01:14:33] S2: Distilling documents and pulling information from the document strikes me as not something that's so susceptible to a mistake. Mhmm. So right, if I if I put a police report file into the into the widget, and it tells me detective Lam surfaced three times in this case January 3, January 8, and January 12. I doubt that's wrong. I doubt that's Yeah. Hallucinated based on my understanding of where the machine learning is at this point. So it... That factual analysis is gonna work in streamlining and getting me answers to questions that I make people run down all day when I'm investigating something or trying something. In terms of the case law, listen if they're making up case law or imagines case law hallucinates, the the team that works besides me needs to double check everything and they do to make sure there's no hallucinations. [01:15:27] S1: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse?