The Fintech OG's from TWIF
00:20:14 路 Leif Abraham
[00:20:14] S2: Yeah, I think generally speaking, we have internally this little saying of if someone tells you this is how it's done, there's probably a better way to do it. And obviously that's not necessarily true in all cases. At some point you you need some people who understand the space really well, right? And we have some of those on the team as well. But I think when it comes down to when it comes down to uh who you hire, there it's important that from the way they work and the way they think about their own grid, that they're willing to get their hands dirty, they can actually be deep in the topics and so on. And I think we've made some mistakes ourselves in the past where we hired from big tech companies and so on. And like right now, when we get a resume from someone who comes from big tech, it's actually a negative for us because they come in and they somehow process and so to say policies of like khoodo smooth wheels in the organization to get something done and so on, like that, those are the things that they've that they've learned and they've obsessed over. And and we are much more in this camp of every manager is also an IC, everyone is deep in the work. And if I look at who the top performers at public are, I think if you would look at their resumes uh blindly, just look at their resumes of the companies that they've been before and whatnot, you would likely not be impressed because you would look for badges that they've collected in their careers of great logos and great organizations and great universities and so on, and you will not find those. And I think a big part of building a company, especially in the earlier days, and as a founder, is the ability to find this undiscovered talent and to be able to look for potential. And street smartness much more than badges and years of experience. And in my experience, going for the badges and the years of experience has pretty much always turned out to be negative.
00:22:15 路 Julie VerHage-Greenberg, Jack Zhang
[00:22:15] S0: Interesting. So one of the questions I like to ask is what advice would you guys have for someone that's just starting out in fintech, whether it be like an undergrad or an MBA. I feel like you guys might have some unconventional thoughts here based on your responses to the last question. [00:22:31] S1: I wasn't sure there's anything specifically in fintech. I think I think general just in building startup, there's very as a lot of commonalities in hiring people. For us, we focus on, like really just focus on three things and raw intelligence, curiosity, and an ability to push things through walls to get shit done. Uh will be the last one. And and then by looking at so many of the successes, people we have hired here, that's probably the three most important things I would say, whether you have an MBA or MBA is actually not a positive thing in sort of when we're interviewing people, unless you're actually looking for a career change. And that's we think is a good thing. If you are in a completely different industry post-NBA, which is which is positive, but like if you're just looking at it to kind of to career advance yourself, I'm not sure that we we buy into that to that philosophy. And and we're really looking at that how much you have achieved in life, especially early on in life and career and and how you build your characters, and that's I would say more important than the badges and and other things on your CV.
00:23:42 路 Leif Abraham
[00:23:42] S2: Yeah, and I think the one of the biggest things I think that matters is attitude. And attitude from the perspective of are you someone who is default yes and let me figure it out? Or are you someone who is default questioning, negative, etc. etc. or pessimistic in some way and that's a in that regard? And and and I would say it's like if you're someone in any, like FinTech not specifically, like in any job or whatever, I think the reason why people want to work with you is number one because of the attitude, and number two, because of your skills. And attitude, I think, is something that often comes a little bit more natural. And so there's some people who just have the attitude, and there are some people who just fucking don't, let's be honest. And then there's and then there's the sense of do you have the skills or not? And the skills you can acquire, but again, the attitude will help you to acquire these skills as well. And I think the main reason, and I think there's actually a great clip from Obama who was like, in some interviews been asked of like what advice, what career advice he would give for young people or something. And he said something in the like like it like in tune of if someone has an issue or needs something done, be the person that says, yes, I'll get it done. And if you then actually fulfill that, and you just be like, Yes, you're the person who gets it done, and you do that again and again and again and again and again, that will build your reputation and that will make people want to work with you. And that will build your professional network, that will get you into new doors. Those are all the people that compete for hiring you, et cetera, et cetera. So that stuff just compounds in careers over time. And so, number one, attitude of like be the person that just says yes, and then the second, have the skills to actually get it done. And I think if you have the combination of the two and you focus on that, you will likely have a very thriving career, no matter if it's fintech or not.
00:25:23 路 Julie VerHage-Greenberg, Jack Zhang, Leif Abraham
[00:25:23] S0: Yeah, the episode that I just got done recording, David Haber was one of the guests, and one thing that he said is he always tried to find people at Bond Street or wherever he was working that he would call safe hands. He knew that he could give them a task or something to do, and he didn't have to worry about it. They were safe. So be safe hands was his tip, and it sounds like both of yours was very similar. So thinking through that was the advice you have for them on their careers if they're just getting started. I want to dive back. We obviously look at both of you now, very successful entrepreneurs in the fintech space. That doesn't come without its lows as well. So I'd love each of you to give an example of a time where you had a career low, how you got through that, and then also a career high, and like how that made you feel and how that maybe like ignited the spark to like just keep pushing and stuff like that as well. [00:26:14] S1: I think I've said to I have too many career lows. The the first five years is full of lows, not many highs. Struggling with part of market fit, going going to different markets. [00:26:24] S0: We well, the first five years you didn't know life. So, like, of course, that was full of love. Then you met him at Money Money and everything. [00:26:32] S2: It was the biggest loss. Yeah, keep saying, keep saying it was a poker table or something. [00:26:36] S0: It's way cooler than saying it was some then you met him at the poker table and your life changed.
00:26:36 路 Julie VerHage-Greenberg, Jack Zhang
[00:26:36] S0: It's way cooler than saying it was some then you met him at the poker table and your life changed. [00:26:41] S1: Now we're talking. There you go. Yeah, definitely need more drinks to to to to get around the lows. And I think the some of the low points will be like the first couple years that when we go to the new market, that gets full airwallet to build a global network. We always need to expand it to new markets. And basically every new market we went to, we never succeeded the first time. We we even in our home country in Australia, we tried the third time, we succeeded. And I remember we were at Hong Kong and we we failed miserably the first time, and we went to the UK and we failed twice. And basically we have to rebuild the team the third time to succeed. And we we're raising money that never that easy, and it's always challenging. We always have to explain why you you guys in so many different markets and how you're able to take a significant share in that market, and many, many basic lessons that just give you a lot of doubt on whether you're doing the right thing. But at the end of the day, I think as a founder, you just have to really stick on the mission of the company and and just keep moving on until my my my co-founder used to see that building a startup is almost like driving in in fall. You're just never really seeing anything beyond two, three meters. That's like the destination quite far away, and then that's the right direction. The only way to reach the destination is keep driving. I like that logic.
00:28:07 路 Leif Abraham, Jack Zhang, Julie VerHage-Greenberg
[00:28:07] S2: Yeah, exactly. I think like talking about achievements is always a little strange because I think the the curse of the founder is that you might always have a little bit of like imposter syndrome, and especially once you reach a certain stage and like you get the unicorn stamp and blah and whatnot, and you jump on podcasts, and it's always like, oh my god, so successful, blah blah blah, and you're like, cool, cool, cool, and it feels nice at the time, but then you turn around and you like you cry in your bat, realizing that everything is not as great as you would love it to be because you see all the issues and that other people don't necessarily see. And so there's a little bit of like I think a little bit of like call it healthy pessimism that comes with being a founder that you feel like nothing is ever really good enough. And I think that is also again what kind of keeps it driving in that sense, right? So I think it's I think it's tough to talk, I think it's tough to talk achievements in that in that way because it always feels like you're not really there yet. [00:29:06] S1: I think when we I think when we build a bigger business than Citibank, I will I will call it achievement. [00:29:11] S0: How close are you? [00:29:12] S1: I think we we uh we should be able to get that done in the next decade. [00:29:15] S0: There you go. All right, I'll have you back on in 2035 and be like, so how does it feel? [00:29:21] S1: I hope it's sooner than 2035, but let's see.