00:20:23 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:20:23] S1: It's a good filter. [00:20:25] S0: Yeah. Like, look, if you don't like it, don't work here. Right? You know, it's it's no... No one's forcing you to do anything. Right? As I said, like, we're very public about work ethic. I personally work seven days a week. So does Charles. So does, you know, many others in the company. But, you know, if you don't like it, you don't you don't need to work here. Right? And I think the type of people we attract is people who really, really care about the problem we're solving. Right? Like, ultimately, think, like, there are not many problems. Right? Like there are a lot of problems. A lot of companies are building... Are solving problems that are good for themselves, good for shareholders, or good for maybe their customers. Right? But maybe not good for society, or maybe neutral at the very least. I I I would say, like, the problem we're solving is, like, not only good for us, good for our customers, but also good for society. Right? It's like a problem... I I don't think I don't I don't think anyone could hate on, you know, hate on the problem we're solving. Right? Like so, yeah, I I I think... And it's also, like, a pretty hard problem to solve. So if you're, like, super smart, super ambitious, I think this could be, like, yo, your life's work. Right? So, yeah, that... That's the type of people Right? And if that's not you, that's that's totally cool.
00:20:25 · Alan Chang, Guillaume Moubeche
[00:20:25] S0: Yeah. Like, look, if you don't like it, don't work here. Right? You know, it's it's no... No one's forcing you to do anything. Right? As I said, like, we're very public about work ethic. I personally work seven days a week. So does Charles. So does, you know, many others in the company. But, you know, if you don't like it, you don't you don't need to work here. Right? And I think the type of people we attract is people who really, really care about the problem we're solving. Right? Like, ultimately, think, like, there are not many problems. Right? Like there are a lot of problems. A lot of companies are building... Are solving problems that are good for themselves, good for shareholders, or good for maybe their customers. Right? But maybe not good for society, or maybe neutral at the very least. I I I would say, like, the problem we're solving is, like, not only good for us, good for our customers, but also good for society. Right? It's like a problem... I I don't think I don't I don't think anyone could hate on, you know, hate on the problem we're solving. Right? Like so, yeah, I I I think... And it's also, like, a pretty hard problem to solve. So if you're, like, super smart, super ambitious, I think this could be, like, yo, your life's work. Right? So, yeah, that... That's the type of people Right? And if that's not you, that's that's totally cool. [00:22:03] S1: And how exactly do you rewire, like, the people you you attract? Like, of course, there is a good salary, but how exactly do you structure, like, equity package now that you are, like, 300 people?
00:22:03 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:22:03] S1: And how exactly do you rewire, like, the people you you attract? Like, of course, there is a good salary, but how exactly do you structure, like, equity package now that you are, like, 300 people? [00:22:16] S0: Yeah. So everything is performance based. Yeah. So top performers disproportionately make a lot more than than average performance. [00:22:24] S1: Can you give, like, a range size even if it's, like, a number you made up, but just so we get an idea, like, of how much performance can impact on on one salary. [00:22:36] S0: I mean, just to give you an idea. Right? The top engineer makes 10 times more than the bottom engineer. [00:22:45] S1: And how do you know from a... For an engineer? Like, what's... Like, how can you validate that is a 10x engineer in the day to day? Like, what kind of KPIs do you measure? [00:22:55] S0: Yeah. So we measure... Well, we both observe, quality and quantity. Right? So I think quality is nonnegotiable. Know? Things like, are you... Is your software actually solving the problem, for example? Because, you you know, you won't believe it, but a lot of software engineers write software that don't solve the problem. Right? And then also, like, you know, finally, quantity. Right? How productive are you? [00:23:23] S1: And how exactly do you, like, measure it specifically? Because for, like, I mean, if you work as a CRO, it's quite easy, I'd say, because you can look at the top line, you're generating the churn or whatever. But for a developer, like, how would you measure, like, specifically?
00:23:23 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:23:23] S1: And how exactly do you, like, measure it specifically? Because for, like, I mean, if you work as a CRO, it's quite easy, I'd say, because you can look at the top line, you're generating the churn or whatever. But for a developer, like, how would you measure, like, specifically? [00:23:38] S0: It's it's more qualitative. Right? Like, it's based on, like, PRs. You know, the code quality there. You can also look at, you know, results. You know, once you ship the... Just software production, like, does it actually solve, you know, the problem? Right? [00:23:54] S1: And and for that, do you think it's it's only tied to the engineer or also to the product team that's working with them? [00:24:04] S0: Well, we don't have product teams. We have designers and engineers. Okay. Engineers have, like, a lot of ownership into end to end execution. [00:24:13] S1: So the engineer would be the one, like, talking directly to the design team so they execute, like, design is basically basically execution of No. What's [00:24:21] S0: So so basically, I I I work directly with the design team, and the design team shares and they trace with engineering team on designs, and then the designs are handed over to engineering team to execute. [00:24:37] S1: And do you feel like measuring the output is always the best way to Yes. Determine? [00:24:44] S0: Yeah. Yes. Okay. And It's it's... To be clear, it's not just the upper level. Right? It's also we look at code quality too.
00:24:44 · Alan Chang, Guillaume Moubeche
[00:24:44] S0: Yeah. Yes. Okay. And It's it's... To be clear, it's not just the upper level. Right? It's also we look at code quality too. [00:24:52] S1: And the code quality is defined by other peer looking at the code? Yeah. Okay. And for other departments, like, what's... What are, like, the typical KPIs do you look at? [00:25:08] S0: Well, like, if it... If it's, you know, if it's, like like, you know, things are... Or like if if like... As a general term, we... If we try to... If it's possible to measure well, then we we measure and reward against it. Right? So for customer service, it's pretty simple. Right? It's how many tickets you handle and how well they're resolved. Right? For electricians, it's also pretty simple. Right? It's about how many jobs you do and how well they're done. So these are some of the examples where it's very easy to measure, and we put, you know, quantitative KPIs. If it's, you know, less linear, right, and it's more like nonlinear work, then we, you know, try... We we we we apply, like, a qualitative approach. [00:25:55] S1: Okay. Okay. Makes sense. And how exactly, like, how exactly are these KPIs, like, measured or, like, not measured, but defined prior to to each year? Because I know that I think you 10 x every year. Maybe this year, it's gonna be less, I'm assuming, because at some point, it gets hard, like, to to 10 x. So do you start from, like, revenue objectives and then distribute, like, each KPIs for each departments, or how exactly is that engineered?
00:25:55 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:25:55] S1: Okay. Okay. Makes sense. And how exactly, like, how exactly are these KPIs, like, measured or, like, not measured, but defined prior to to each year? Because I know that I think you 10 x every year. Maybe this year, it's gonna be less, I'm assuming, because at some point, it gets hard, like, to to 10 x. So do you start from, like, revenue objectives and then distribute, like, each KPIs for each departments, or how exactly is that engineered? [00:26:29] S0: Yeah. So for now, it's... We have... We... For now, we centralize planning for other company. So everything we do is decided, you know, by the leadership team. Although that being said, anyone could challenge. But, yeah, we we give, like, qualitative goals to each leader of the company. [00:26:57] S1: Okay. And how do you make sure, like, to always attract the the best talents? When... Whenever you started the company, like, how did you find, like, the first 10 people, and you knew that they were gonna be, like, rock stars of of the company? Like, what was your process in selecting and hiring?