Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:30:11 · Lenny Rachitsky, Peter Sellis
[00:30:11] S0: Yeah. Yeah. [inaudible 00:30:12] [00:30:12] S1: ... it was supposed to be about this? [00:30:12] S0: That was a big one. Yeah. [00:30:14] S1: Yeah. Sometimes people say systems thinking, then they go out and buy that book... [00:30:19] S0: Yeah, with the Slinky? [00:30:20] S1: Yeah. It's like, I'm a systems thinker now. Yeah, I think it actually the most underrated aspect of systems thinking is having a mathematical background to be able to describe the system in mathematical terms, to actually map it out in terms of stocks and flows and different probability. Is this bimodal, or is this normally distributed? And just being able to understand, to be able to mathematically communicate how a system works... Because otherwise I think it's this famous method, it's a very MBA-ish type bullshit thing, but ironically it kind of works. I think it came out of Toyota or something, the Five Whys. And you're like, "Oh, what's the Five Whys? Must be the super amazing systems thinking method." It's apparently just asking why five times, and then you get to the bottom of things. And I'm like, that's how the majority of people when they say systems thinking, I think they're basically just saying, "I asked why five times and I got to the first principle."
00:30:20 · Peter Sellis, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:30:20] S1: Yeah. It's like, I'm a systems thinker now. Yeah, I think it actually the most underrated aspect of systems thinking is having a mathematical background to be able to describe the system in mathematical terms, to actually map it out in terms of stocks and flows and different probability. Is this bimodal, or is this normally distributed? And just being able to understand, to be able to mathematically communicate how a system works... Because otherwise I think it's this famous method, it's a very MBA-ish type bullshit thing, but ironically it kind of works. I think it came out of Toyota or something, the Five Whys. And you're like, "Oh, what's the Five Whys? Must be the super amazing systems thinking method." It's apparently just asking why five times, and then you get to the bottom of things. And I'm like, that's how the majority of people when they say systems thinking, I think they're basically just saying, "I asked why five times and I got to the first principle." [00:31:14] S0: That is awesome. I was going to ask you to help people understand what is systems thinking because it's this broad term that is hard to really know. And so, I love this answer. So, you're finding basically just ask five whys that is actually the really effective way to develop systems thinking to actually think about the bigger picture.
00:31:14 · Lenny Rachitsky, Peter Sellis
[00:31:14] S0: That is awesome. I was going to ask you to help people understand what is systems thinking because it's this broad term that is hard to really know. And so, I love this answer. So, you're finding basically just ask five whys that is actually the really effective way to develop systems thinking to actually think about the bigger picture. [00:31:31] S1: Yeah. But I would love it if maybe rather than reading the Slinky book, there was more like J Forrester system dynamics from the manufacturing kind of stuff, from the 1970s, and then I think just a mathematical understanding of how the system works, if you had to model it. [inaudible 00:31:50]- [00:31:50] S0: Yeah, I was going to ask, so basically just create a spreadsheet model of how- [00:31:53] S1: Exactly. Yeah. [00:31:55] S0: Yeah- [00:31:55] S1: I think can be very clarifying from a- [00:31:57] S0: That is actually... Okay. So that's a really good way to understand systems thinking, model it out, put it in a spreadsheet, what are all the variables, what comes in, what comes out, what are the levers? [00:32:05] S1: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:06] S0: That's actually very helpful. [00:32:07] S1: What are the levers? What are the distributions behind those levers? Yeah, I think it can be very clarifying even if the spreadsheet goes nowhere other than your shared drive, it can be very clarifying. [00:32:18] S0: Feed your agent. I was going to say real quick on Snapchat+ my favorite part of the story is that Instagram launched Instagram Plus. It's just like another classic Snapchat story.
00:32:18 · Lenny Rachitsky, Peter Sellis
[00:32:18] S0: Feed your agent. I was going to say real quick on Snapchat+ my favorite part of the story is that Instagram launched Instagram Plus. It's just like another classic Snapchat story. [00:32:30] S1: Yeah. Yeah. I think there was, early on, I remember at Snap, it was so funny to see how aggressively Instagram was copying, that they were actually copying some of our worst features, like ones that weren't working, just because I think they just assumed everything that we were touching was turning to gold. Like ads- [00:32:48] S0: What's an example of that? [00:32:49] S1: Yeah. And then there's some features that on Instagram just don't make as much, like the map and things like that, that will take time. But when it comes to stories, which was obviously extremely effective from a copying perspective, you'd be hard-pressed to say anything, but the version of it on Instagram is now much better. What Instagram has done with that format, it really suits the product super well. And that team is powered by a bunch of great designers. And when they start thinking from first principles and with the taste that Adam, who was also on the pod, has, that product is well architected from a human computer interaction standpoint in a way that I think is actually really admirable on many levels.
00:32:49 · Peter Sellis, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:32:49] S1: Yeah. And then there's some features that on Instagram just don't make as much, like the map and things like that, that will take time. But when it comes to stories, which was obviously extremely effective from a copying perspective, you'd be hard-pressed to say anything, but the version of it on Instagram is now much better. What Instagram has done with that format, it really suits the product super well. And that team is powered by a bunch of great designers. And when they start thinking from first principles and with the taste that Adam, who was also on the pod, has, that product is well architected from a human computer interaction standpoint in a way that I think is actually really admirable on many levels. [00:33:32] S0: I keep trying to move away from Snapchat, but new questions come up as you share more. Something that came up in my chat with Evan about this is seeing everybody copying Snapchat for 15 years, or however long it's been, his takeaway basically is software is no longer remote, you have to focus on other things. He described that's why he's spending so much time on hardware was his answer. And also just the ecosystem and the network effects of a product. Thoughts on that?
00:33:32 · Lenny Rachitsky, Peter Sellis
[00:33:32] S0: I keep trying to move away from Snapchat, but new questions come up as you share more. Something that came up in my chat with Evan about this is seeing everybody copying Snapchat for 15 years, or however long it's been, his takeaway basically is software is no longer remote, you have to focus on other things. He described that's why he's spending so much time on hardware was his answer. And also just the ecosystem and the network effects of a product. Thoughts on that? [00:34:00] S1: I have tremendous respect for Evan, and I think he's essentially been right on almost everything, just early on some stuff. Maybe early on everything actually too. Even stuff like avatars, AI, essentially all of the on-device AR that we were doing was, at the time, it was more just called machine learning, but employed some form of machine intelligence that was super avant garde at the time. So, I think when he says something like this, there's probably some truth to it. I think a lot of people are frustrated with Snap because it doesn't have the financial profile to be able to support the type of hardware development that he wants to do, it seems, and that there still isn't a great answer on the monetization front, for which obviously I bear a lot of responsibility. But from that kind of moat perspective, like what he said, I watched the pod, yeah, I think he's right, but that maybe investors or the world doesn't want to give him the space to be right in some ways. [00:35:08] S0: It's challenging.