Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:15:23 · Molly Graham, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:15:23] S1: No, totally. And it goes to that point about the walls. I think those of us that have been around a long time and there's a way that things were done, there's a way that product was built, there's all these ways, those are walls. They're walls, they're old. And part of what we need to do, and I think part of what you're saying is you're actually little bit at an advantage if you don't know those walls exist. If you approach the world as if engineers didn't have a different role from X or Y or Z, or this is the way things are done, there is an advantage to being able to say, "What if? What if I just did it?" And to just try. And to your point to always think, "Hey, what's the best use of my time? And then what could an agent or a robot do for me?" And I think that's partially the point about the learners. If you're able to shed the sort of things you think you know and lean into the possibility and the first principles thinking, which I know you have a great article about too, that I think is going to define the future. Those are going to be the people that are going to shape what this thing looks like. [01:16:36] S0: Yeah. There's also a thread here around ambition that's been coming up a lot on the podcast. [01:16:42] S1: Oh, interesting.
01:16:42 · Molly Graham, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:16:42] S1: Oh, interesting. [01:16:43] S0: Yeah. This idea that now that it's so easy to do whatever you want, just describe it and it's built. The thing that we need to... In addition to asking ourselves, can AI help me with this thing is how do we be more ambitious with this idea? Because the tools can now just do so much and they're just waiting for you to tell me something more ambitious than that. That's all you got for me? And human nature doesn't... We're not used to end product teams and business just thinking about the most ambitious version of a thing. We're thinking about the MVP and what's the quickest way to get this out, and now it feels like the push is how do we think big? What's the hardest thing we can ask this AI to do because it may actually just achieve it out of one ask. [01:17:25] S1: Yeah. And I'd also nudge on the idea that, yeah, you can just type something into existence, but one of the other questions you need to ask yourself is it good? Do you know what I mean? This is the slop and the accountability thing, which is like... And if ambition is wrapped up in how do I build something phenomenal that's going to endure, that I'm interested in. If it's just like, how do I make more shit and put it out in the world? One of my questions, this is really frontier, Lenny, is what is the AI slop version of startups? Are we about to see a shit-ton of companies just shipping stuff out into the world that's going to last for six or 12 months and then just disappear or get irrelevant? [01:18:10] S0: Definitely.
01:18:10 · Lenny Rachitsky, Molly Graham
[01:18:10] S0: Definitely. [01:18:11] S1: So okay, great. That doesn't sound fun. How can you be the pioneer of the enduring thing, the thing that's going to still be around in five years, that's going to matter, that's going to be great, not just exist? And again, it goes to the difference between just productivity, like I built a thing, and what is good? What is actually worth it? What's worth other people's time? [01:18:34] S0: Yeah. I think that's a big differentiating opportunity right now instead of just shipping the thing fast, it's what's a very good version of this thing. And people see that. They're like, "Oh, wow. This is different." [01:18:44] S1: Yeah, exactly. I think this goes to the point of what will matter when it comes to human touch, and I think a lot of that is going to come down to the question of what is good and what is worth it and what endures. [01:18:58] S0: Is there anything that we haven't touched on that we should before we try to summarize maybe some key lessons from this freewheeling conversation?
01:19:08 · Molly Graham
[01:19:08] S1: Well, the one thing I just wanted to say is... I was thinking yesterday because of the conversation I was having is like, what do I want every manager or leader out there to know? Because I think the world of the IC is honestly a little more clear. You are more productive and you have all this power and agency around building, and the world that feels very hard to me right now is the world of the managers and the leaders because so much is changing so fast. It's a little bit hard to know what to tell people. It's a little bit hard to know what your team should look like, what matters, what doesn't matter, all that. And so I guess I wanted to say a couple of things to the managers and leaders out there, if you'll give me the sec. The first is understand that you're a role model and that what you do and how you behave is essentially showing your team what good looks like. And that means that how you use AI trickles down, but also how you sit in this moment, how you show up. And for me, what I want a little more space for in the world is to be able to acknowledge what this change feels like. I hope there's more managers out there because of this conversation talking about grief and talking about the emotions that come with change and talking about how hard this is for people. I think that acknowledging what this rate of change does to people's brains and psychologies, it just... Honestly, even acknowledging it makes it easier for people. Like I said, I swear to God, that's most of what the Legos article did is just tell people, "Hey, that thing that you're feeling, other people have felt it before you and it hasn't meant that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. It's meant, oh, you're going through a lot of change really, really fast and it's scary and hard." So the more that leaders can be talking about that, I think the more sane everyone's going to feel and less alone. Knowing that someone at XYZ company is feeling the same way as you makes a difference. And I guess the last thing I just say is I think everyone owns this to some extent, but managers and leaders more so, we need to hold on to the definition of accountability and what good means. I think that's part of the role modeling. What is right to give away to AI and what do we still as humans and people and workers need to own?
01:21:45 · Molly Graham, Lenny Rachitsky
We're going to have to role model that and we're going to have to create standards for that. So that goes to your own behavior, but it also goes to how you lead and how you talk about it. Clay put out this beautiful AI writing policy a couple weeks ago, I think it was, and it's so badass because it's literally just talking about being accountable for what you ship out in the world and being accountable for what good is regardless of how you made it. And for today, to me, that feeling of treating AI as a junior intern and realizing that it's fundamentally just a tool to get work done, but what matters is the work is still done mostly by the humans and the human brains, and we got to take care of the humans and we got to help them figure out how to navigate this wild, wild west that we are in. [01:22:39] S0: I'm really glad you added that. It connects to another really interesting insight from the survey, which is that the one thing that you can actually change to increase people's happiness right now at work is their manager. That's the strongest lever for happiness at work. You can actually do something about it. All this other AI stuff you can't do a ton about, that's one. And most people's managers are not good according to the survey also. [01:23:06] S1: None of this is surprising. [01:23:07] S0: So taking care of the managers is kind of just a reminder that you have a lot of leverage there as well.
01:23:07 · Lenny Rachitsky, Molly Graham
[01:23:07] S0: So taking care of the managers is kind of just a reminder that you have a lot of leverage there as well. [01:23:11] S1: Yeah, which by the way, there are trends inside of bigger companies to get rid of management, to get rid of whole management layers, and I think it is a huge mistake. I think it is going to end up biting people in the ass long term because I see no signs right now that management matters less. If anything, to your point, I think it matters more. And again, I get the efficiency and the cost savings and all that, but I think at what costs that you can't predict. So it really resonates that management is almost more important because it makes people feel seen. That's what a great manager does is make people feel seen and supported and help them figure out whatever mess they're in. [01:23:53] S0: It's going to be so interesting to see if there's a backlash towards that. People have had great managers, they're rarely going to be like, "I wish I had no manager." It's like the people with bad managers, which a lot of people are like, "I don't need this person, but they're so useless." [01:24:06] S1: Yeah, they're in my way. They are a wall. No, totally. I mean, I always say you only get a couple good managers in your life and when you find one, hold onto it for dear life because you're only going to get two. [01:24:17] S0: Oh, man. Scary. I've never heard that advice before. Anything else that you wanted to share or touch on? [01:24:27] S1: I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see what-