Unsupervised Learning with Jacob Effron
00:10:45 · Diogo, Jacob Effron
So the moat ends up becoming the equivalent of a system message that you send every time versus, like, the moat and the intelligence and the behavior and the specialization actually existing in software where we just make little micro decisions for you, and you do all of the sick logic. Yeah. So it... There's so much to do. There's so much to do. [00:11:04] S0: No. I think your point's really interesting because I feel like when Jev came out, there became maybe, like, a common set of patterns or rules that folks were like, oh, yeah. Like, this is a really good use case for for Jev, you should, you know, try it out in this thing or or or that thing. And everyone tried it out and, you know, kind of got that sense of patterns. You know, I almost feel like people are trying to get their own mental models of like, okay. I use, like, you know, Opus five five for, like, this kind of thing, and I use Jev for, like, this kind of thing. And I feel like your point's well... You know, that your point is like this is a dynamic evolving thing that you could... There's not strict boundaries, I guess, between those two types of model categories. But, like, what's your
00:11:04 · Jacob Effron, Diogo
[00:11:04] S0: No. I think your point's really interesting because I feel like when Jev came out, there became maybe, like, a common set of patterns or rules that folks were like, oh, yeah. Like, this is a really good use case for for Jev, you should, you know, try it out in this thing or or or that thing. And everyone tried it out and, you know, kind of got that sense of patterns. You know, I almost feel like people are trying to get their own mental models of like, okay. I use, like, you know, Opus five five for, like, this kind of thing, and I use Jev for, like, this kind of thing. And I feel like your point's well... You know, that your point is like this is a dynamic evolving thing that you could... There's not strict boundaries, I guess, between those two types of model categories. But, like, what's your [00:11:39] S1: Ish. Ish, I I actually think that what you're describe... Describing is a little bit sad to me, and I, you know, I understand that, like, we are playing a role in this. I do not think that that is the most developer centric worldview. Like, for people to start building, like, theories of mind of the submodels they call and have their systems locked into that is, in my opinion, a really, really bad thing. I think the North star for intelligence is gonna be a lot like SQL. Like, we wanna be so reliable that it's actually provider agnostic. We obviously want the best models, but, like, we don't want it to be locked into, like, things that only work with Jev.
00:11:39 · Diogo, Jacob Effron
[00:11:39] S1: Ish. Ish, I I actually think that what you're describe... Describing is a little bit sad to me, and I, you know, I understand that, like, we are playing a role in this. I do not think that that is the most developer centric worldview. Like, for people to start building, like, theories of mind of the submodels they call and have their systems locked into that is, in my opinion, a really, really bad thing. I think the North star for intelligence is gonna be a lot like SQL. Like, we wanna be so reliable that it's actually provider agnostic. We obviously want the best models, but, like, we don't want it to be locked into, like, things that only work with Jev. [00:12:14] S0: So what is your, you know, mental model for how this all evolves in terms of, you know, this, like, thing people are doing today of, like, you know, hey. You know, Jev works really well for these things. Maybe, like, there's other sets of models that have been not... Like, to your point, like, RLVR works really well for code and math, other... You know, we'll see what else it it ends up working really well for. Like, does... Well, I I have to interrogate that gesture. What what what was that about? [00:12:36] S1: No. You wanna you wanna interrogate it right now? [00:12:39] S0: Yeah.
00:12:39 · Jacob Effron, Diogo
[00:12:39] S0: Yeah. [00:12:39] S1: Yeah. Well, really well is quite relative. I... As far as I can tell, even the best companies still require humans in the loop for all of this stuff despite superhuman results in some axes. And that still... Like like, like, people should have an answer to why that is the case. Like, if they are so unbelievably good at software, like, why do normal software engineers have anything to do? Not that I want them automated, but, like, they clearly aren't, and there's clearly something missing there. And I think thinking of, like, intelligence as this single axis that is measured by whatever the benchmark of the day is is, like, totally wrong. And there's, like, obviously nuance missing there because the people who go all in on not understanding that nuance get burned super hard. So I think that RLVR is incredible, but it is incredible at human in the loop stuff still. And I think that wisdom comes from understanding reality where it's at, knowing its weaknesses, and I... This is we are obviously use agents a lot, but we really value understanding its limitations. You know, I just wouldn't say that it's like, oh, super great, and it just solves everything, personally. May... Maybe I'm using the wrong models.
00:13:48 · Jacob Effron
[00:13:48] S0: I think a lot of our listeners are trying to figure out, you know, how... Like, a simple mental model maybe of of Jev, which I know you disagree with is is like, you know, hey. There's some set of tasks or some set of things I'm trying to do that will make sense for this. There'll be some set of things that make sense for for other things. And I'm sure 95% of our listeners right now are trying to just, adjust their own mental model of, like, okay. What am I, like, Jev use cases? When do I use Jev?
00:14:09 · Diogo
[00:14:09] S1: That's a very pragmatic take for the short term, and I'm in favor of it. This is, like, where it's about giving engineers power because, like, we shouldn't be overly opinionated about what they use it on. And if they need to do things to make it work, abso fucking lutely, hell yeah. Like, if you need to do, like, the worst dirtiest hacks to provide value in the world, like, you know, like, we are not gonna stop you. Like, that is awesome. And, also, if you have to do too many hacks, that's still our fault. You know? Like like, at a deal where you wouldn't need to do that. And the more it becomes close to, like, semantic understanding, the more beautiful the code is, the more reusable it is, the more you can plug it in into places that you wouldn't expect it to. It's kind of like the Unix philosophy of, like, doing, like, incredibly small useful things, but because people have a mental model of it, they can compose it together into big ones. I feel like this is great. And, also, like, we should not be, like, recreating regexes. We should be recreating, like, beautiful primitives. Not that I hate regexes. I just don't like reading them. You know? And, like like, you know, like, it's it's it's like it's like more... What's the word? Is it write only code type stuff? And, like, we we want to be beautiful, composable. We want to, like, build on layers. Like, LMs have failed to do so, and we want stuff to be more like software. You know? I think I have a... An okay mental model of software engineers at worst. Like, it's kind of weird that people even want to update to the latest and greatest models. I hate updating my dependencies. Like, updating dependencies is, like, the worst thing ever for production software. It's fun for personal use. Like, I used to use Arch Linux. I get it. And, also, like, why would I want to bear the burden of that? And the only reason people keep doing this treadmill of, like, maybe the next model will fix my problems is because I don't think they solve those problems so well that they can run-in the background, fuck off for literally ever, and maybe cut... You know, revisit it every, like, couple of months to see, like, is there a a cheaper or better alternative available, but it works fine right now. I don't I don't know of anything like that. And that is, that's a sad state of the world.