The High Flyers Podcast with Vidit Agarwal
00:50:31 · Alan Joyce
[00:50:31] S1: First of all, I think what I did is I figured out what I knew and what I didn't know. So I had a career that worked through most of the commercial side of the aviation industry. So network planning, revenue management, pricing, fleet planning. And a large part of the job at the start was developing a business case, which I had done for decades. So we did a... I got a team around me that were really good, pulled together a great business case, but then figured out the areas that I had weakness in, and then saying, how do I get really good people to help me with that? When I talk in the book against somebody like Bill Johnsey, who had this huge expertise in operations, John Gissing, who had this huge expertise in safety, I then used these guys who were a lot older than me, who were very experienced in what they did, as people to mentoring me through those areas of the business I didn't know, and relying on their expertise on it. And then also we had a great CEO in Jeff Dixon, so we'd be picking up the phone to Jeff. Then later, when I was CEO of Qantas, it was Leigh Clifford as chairman who was the CEO of a very big company, and ringing him up and ringing Jeff up and saying, look, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think is wrong with this? How do you think I should handle it when there's a problem? And being always open about the problems that you were facing and having that dialogue with them. But getting... And then it's deep diving on it. So while I knew how to do network planning, which is where an airline should fly to on the fleet, you hire people and let them do that. And you stand on that at 30,000 feet. You said, I'm not gonna get down. I'm not doing that job. That's the job. And a few people fail at this because they go back to the peep... The area that makes them comfortable. And fleet planning, network planning, pricing would have made me comfortable, but we had really good people doing that. So I didn't need to be at five feet. I need to be at 30,000 feet, Donna, and let them do the job. But then in other areas, like how does the safety management system work? Because then I was the accountable manager. I had legal responsibility for the safety of the airline. And there was a big learning curve in saying, how do I be at five feet on this so that I learn, I'm comfortable, I know what's happening?
00:52:54 · Alan Joyce, Vidit Agarwal
And then you immerse yourself and spend your time and your effort getting to know that part of the business. And I took, I chaired the safety committee on Jetstar for the full five years I was there. I've had a huge amount of training and learning from those great operational people to understand how that worked, And that brought me up to speed very fast. And you had those people that you could rely on. And then after a while, you started coming up from five fleets to also be at 30,000 feet for that and let the experts manage it. [00:53:28] S0: So when I did the research and I, as you know, spoke to a lot of people, I said, what's one question I should ask Alan? And I think the most curiosity I received on that is people said ask him to assess his strengths and weaknesses. And I say that because you mentioned the word weakness earlier. How would you assess your strengths and weaknesses?
00:53:45 · Alan Joyce
[00:53:45] S1: Yeah, well, think my strengths would be I think I'm a good people manager, good people selector. I usually get good people around me. I think I'm actually really good at strategic thinking and challenging the strategic ways of doing things. I think my... I'm also, I think, a gregarious person. I like talking to people. I like telling stories. I'm very engaged with friends and family on that. I think my weaknesses are, I don't suffer fools. So I think people come in ill prepared, don't know what they're talking about. I'm not sure I tolerate that as well as I could. I think I don't suffer injustices. I think this comes back from the story we talked about with my mom. I think I get to a stage where I a lot of my ex colleagues, my friends would say, God, Alan's fighting over another injustice again. Can you not let it lie? Why do you always have to be out there fighting? And I think that that was one of the feedbacks I used to get from people. Why do you have to be out there fighting? But I think I'm on Mother's side on that. And I think also, I think, looking looking back on it, I think I'm impatient, so I want things to happen faster than sometimes they can. And that that can lead to us... I think that can lead, to people getting frustrated because I I find that why isn't this happening? Why aren't things moving? Because we don't have the time on this. And I think they can be things that are in a negative. But I think you always look back on it, and you think that everybody has positives and negatives. It's, I think it's also trying to recognize, that when your negatives can, well, some of your positives also can be a negative. So I go through some of those positives at the same time, and I think they can translate into being a negative for you, And I think that's worthwhile also recognizing.
00:55:56 · Vidit Agarwal, Alan Joyce
[00:55:56] S0: A lot of people that know you really well say that you are intense. Would you say that's a strength or a weakness? [00:56:03] S1: So it depends on the environment about being intense. So probably a lot of people would see me when it came to, to to big decisions and big issues, being intense around them. And I felt like that is that mindfulness, which is your strength and your weakness. So your mindfulness translates into you being very single-minded and focused, on the thing you're doing at the time. And I think that can come across as intense. But for me, that's been present, that's been in the room, that's been there and paying all your attention to that issue. But that can come across as very intense. To me, it's the other side of mindfulness, the other side of focus. It can be a negative. It's, again, one of your positives being a negative. [00:56:50] S0: Okay, thank you. Thank you for sharing that candidly to some extent. You share in the book about your interview process to become Qantas CEO. I think you talk about, you reflect on the presentation to the board and some of your aspirations. Can you unpack that for us? I think people are always fascinated, like how does someone become CEO? What was your process? And now looking back on that process, is there anything you would have done differently?
00:57:16 · Alan Joyce
[00:57:16] S1: So, yes, so the the pros the process was the the board had decided that they were going to look at internal, external candidates. They hired a great a great guy called Steve Langton, who worked with all the internal candidates out of assessing what the quota CEO job description for the perfect candidate looked like, and then assessed all of the internal candidates about where where they were and looked at the gap. So it looked at the gap between the current position and where you need to get to, and then worked on a development plan to close that gap. So there were a lot of things he ran through, his three sixty degree feedback, my boss, which was Jeff, people that worked with me, people that worked for me, and then said, what are the areas that you need to build up your strength in, and what were the areas that you needed to enhance? And that was a great process. Really enjoyed it, really worked with Steve Langton. He's been used by a lot of boards to help in the selection and development of the CEOs. And as I was leaving Qantas, I used him and the board for the same process with the next CEO. And I think everybody that was involved in that process found it very useful. The other thing that was feedback I got at the time was also that I wasn't dressing very correctly for being Qantas CEO. I I tell the story in the book that I was voted as CEO of Jetstar as the worst dressed CEO in the country at the time. I think somebody said it gave... I gave off I gave off the vibes of being a graduate at the photocopier, I think, was the was the citation. And I took that as a badge of honor at the time, but I had somebody in Old Meadow who I know very well came to me, and he basically said, this is gonna be an issue with getting the Qantas job because you you need to up your game. You need to start dressing better. And was right, because Qantas are premium airline. The cabin crew and the pilots all dressed with a tie. Jetstar was obviously more of a leisure airline at low cost. And that was the other thing that I needed to work on. And I say in the book, I got a stylist at the time to help me with what's the right dress sense, to have the right impression of being a CEO because that was an issue with getting the job at the same time.
00:59:35 · Vidit Agarwal
[00:59:35] S0: Yeah, yeah, I did find that story funny and I'm glad you shared that. If I compare Jetstar and Qantas, as in your time at both, I was trying to think of what is a question that brings them both together, and maybe the one is, was there things that you'd, your persona and your approach to Jetstar that actually became Achilles' heel at Qantas?